1 00:00:04,130 --> 00:00:02,180 do you enjoy true stories of the 2 00:00:06,769 --> 00:00:04,140 supernatural from the people who 3 00:00:09,950 --> 00:00:06,779 experienced it well then you might like 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:09,960 my show Jim Harold's campfire hi I'm Jim 5 00:00:15,620 --> 00:00:12,929 and we've been doing the show since 2009 6 00:00:18,590 --> 00:00:15,630 and we talk about ghosts cryptic 7 00:00:20,510 --> 00:00:18,600 creatures UFOs head scratchers you name 8 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:20,520 it and you tune in you might hear a 9 00:00:26,179 --> 00:00:22,890 story like this one and as he was 10 00:00:29,660 --> 00:00:26,189 driving home he encountered a shadow 11 00:00:32,990 --> 00:00:29,670 person who seemed to be dressed like a 12 00:00:35,959 --> 00:00:33,000 monk I know that sounds very strange but 13 00:00:39,069 --> 00:00:35,969 it was a solid black form and it was 14 00:00:43,729 --> 00:00:39,079 wearing a hooded cloak tied at the waist 15 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:43,739 with the cloak up and it had glowing red 16 00:00:51,619 --> 00:00:47,610 eyes he sees this thing coming out of a 17 00:00:53,389 --> 00:00:51,629 really teeny abandoned Cemetery if you 18 00:00:55,850 --> 00:00:53,399 haven't tuned in I hope you'll check us 19 00:00:58,819 --> 00:00:55,860 out you can find us on Apple podcasts 20 00:01:01,490 --> 00:00:58,829 Spotify and wherever podcasts are heard 21 00:01:04,189 --> 00:01:01,500 it's Jim Harold's campfire and you can 22 00:01:16,789 --> 00:01:04,199 find it at Jim Harold calm thanks so 23 00:01:19,470 --> 00:01:16,799 much and stay spooky this is somewhere 24 00:01:38,770 --> 00:01:27,530 [Music] 25 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:38,780 fj thank you so much for joining me 26 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:41,450 today it is my pleasure to be here it is 27 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:42,890 always an honor to be on your show right 28 00:01:47,499 --> 00:01:45,890 oh thank you so much man I know whenever 29 00:01:49,780 --> 00:01:47,509 I ask people which episodes are their 30 00:01:52,300 --> 00:01:49,790 favorite way more than any other I've 31 00:01:54,310 --> 00:01:52,310 got in any conversation with you so it 32 00:01:56,980 --> 00:01:54,320 is my honor to have you back on this is 33 00:01:58,690 --> 00:01:56,990 gonna be sort of a unofficial somewhere 34 00:02:00,700 --> 00:01:58,700 in the whiskey we're both drinking water 35 00:02:04,300 --> 00:02:00,710 tonight so I guess it's somewhere in the 36 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:04,310 h2o as yeah somewhere in the nursing a 37 00:02:12,490 --> 00:02:09,530 hangover exactly but uh you know it's 38 00:02:15,430 --> 00:02:12,500 it's this I think I'm gonna go with this 39 00:02:16,809 --> 00:02:15,440 episode being titled aptly the UFO 40 00:02:18,640 --> 00:02:16,819 people because today we're gonna be 41 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:18,650 talking mostly about your upcoming book 42 00:02:24,009 --> 00:02:21,290 the UFO people a curious culture but 43 00:02:26,380 --> 00:02:24,019 before we get to that I would love to 44 00:02:29,830 --> 00:02:26,390 discuss your latest article over at Tara 45 00:02:32,860 --> 00:02:29,840 obscura titled is the military stovepipe 46 00:02:34,570 --> 00:02:32,870 being UFO programs this was really 47 00:02:37,870 --> 00:02:34,580 interesting man some stuff you were able 48 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:37,880 to dig up and Paul Dean as well Who am I 49 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:40,450 know was featured in your book heavily 50 00:02:46,140 --> 00:02:43,130 this has to do with to the stars well 51 00:02:47,319 --> 00:02:46,150 not really do the stars more a tip and a 52 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:47,329 scepter 53 00:02:52,300 --> 00:02:50,570 what was this recent article all about 54 00:02:53,229 --> 00:02:52,310 that jeewa that you wrote over there 55 00:02:57,370 --> 00:02:53,239 it's Arabs Kira 56 00:02:59,560 --> 00:02:57,380 sure so Paul Dehn wrote a great blog 57 00:03:01,569 --> 00:02:59,570 post and for any of your listeners who 58 00:03:05,319 --> 00:03:01,579 have not sort of read any of Paul Dean's 59 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:05,329 work he runs a great blog called UFOs 60 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:07,370 documenting the evidence so if you just 61 00:03:12,699 --> 00:03:09,170 google that or just google UFOs Paul 62 00:03:15,940 --> 00:03:12,709 deem his blog is stupendous because he's 63 00:03:19,539 --> 00:03:15,950 sort of one of the few sort of UFO 64 00:03:22,930 --> 00:03:19,549 historians out there that does archival 65 00:03:24,789 --> 00:03:22,940 UFO work so he'll dig up and he'll do 66 00:03:26,920 --> 00:03:24,799 foi a request and he'll dig up old 67 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:26,930 documents and sort of piece things 68 00:03:31,690 --> 00:03:29,810 together and the guys brain like when 69 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:31,700 you when you speak to him he knows 70 00:03:35,650 --> 00:03:33,290 everything has to know about the 71 00:03:38,530 --> 00:03:35,660 government in regards to UFOs and he can 72 00:03:40,750 --> 00:03:38,540 cite like he could say document numbers 73 00:03:42,849 --> 00:03:40,760 and Department numbers and and all of 74 00:03:45,219 --> 00:03:42,859 these different things that like your 75 00:03:48,220 --> 00:03:45,229 brain spins when you speak to him but 76 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:48,230 he's an expert archivist 77 00:03:53,710 --> 00:03:50,450 and he just sort of put together by a 78 00:03:56,050 --> 00:03:53,720 sort of old documents he had and then 79 00:04:01,539 --> 00:03:56,060 some recent foi a sort of documents that 80 00:04:05,229 --> 00:04:01,549 came in he he started to realize that a 81 00:04:07,509 --> 00:04:05,239 lot of the language that the a tip 82 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:07,519 program used and again that's the the 83 00:04:11,860 --> 00:04:10,610 most recent switch pentagon UFO program 84 00:04:14,470 --> 00:04:11,870 that just was sort of talked about by 85 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:14,480 the new york times and in 2017 he 86 00:04:17,830 --> 00:04:16,010 started to he sort of put together that 87 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:17,840 the a tip program and then sort of 88 00:04:25,330 --> 00:04:21,530 predecessor the aw snap program used 89 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:25,340 very similar language to that of Nasik 90 00:04:29,890 --> 00:04:27,770 so Paula Dean discovered that there was 91 00:04:32,980 --> 00:04:29,900 this airforce 92 00:04:34,779 --> 00:04:32,990 I guess program / I don't know 93 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:34,789 department called 94 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:36,050 oh god of course I came over the name 95 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:38,810 the North is a North American I feel 96 00:04:43,270 --> 00:04:40,610 looking it up now that that's the right 97 00:04:44,980 --> 00:04:43,280 it's like yeah I totally just forgot the 98 00:04:48,510 --> 00:04:44,990 National Air and Space Intelligence 99 00:04:50,740 --> 00:04:48,520 Center and they operate out of 100 00:04:55,020 --> 00:04:50,750 wright-patterson Air Force Base I 101 00:04:58,089 --> 00:04:55,030 believe and their entire game is to 102 00:05:00,820 --> 00:04:58,099 basically it's an intended intelligence 103 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:00,830 organization and they analyze foreign 104 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:03,410 air and foreign space 105 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:05,330 I don't know threats let's say so 106 00:05:08,710 --> 00:05:07,130 they're always on the hunt for 107 00:05:11,140 --> 00:05:08,720 intelligence regarding sort of the 108 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:11,150 newest and latest technology regarding 109 00:05:14,860 --> 00:05:12,289 you know intercontinental ballistic 110 00:05:17,950 --> 00:05:14,870 missiles satellites that type of thing 111 00:05:19,810 --> 00:05:17,960 but in their program sort of language 112 00:05:24,670 --> 00:05:19,820 these sort of about us section let's say 113 00:05:26,469 --> 00:05:24,680 of their department they use very 114 00:05:28,450 --> 00:05:26,479 similar phrases to that of a tip 115 00:05:30,969 --> 00:05:28,460 something like advanced aerial threats 116 00:05:34,629 --> 00:05:30,979 and they talk about exotic aerial 117 00:05:36,100 --> 00:05:34,639 threats or advanced propulsion and stuff 118 00:05:38,260 --> 00:05:36,110 like I send a lot of the buzzwords that 119 00:05:42,700 --> 00:05:38,270 has recently come out as a result of a 120 00:05:46,150 --> 00:05:42,710 tip and app and the TTS a sort of sort 121 00:05:48,879 --> 00:05:46,160 of media push a lot of the lingo is 122 00:05:50,260 --> 00:05:48,889 similar so what Paul Dehn kind of points 123 00:05:52,990 --> 00:05:50,270 out as well you know Nasik has been 124 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:53,000 around for quite some time since sort of 125 00:05:56,709 --> 00:05:55,250 the 1950s and 60s it has had different 126 00:05:58,930 --> 00:05:56,719 names but ultimately he can sort of 127 00:06:02,470 --> 00:05:58,940 Trace that the progression of this 128 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:02,480 program since the early 60s and 70s 129 00:06:06,370 --> 00:06:04,490 and a tip is a relatively new program 130 00:06:10,300 --> 00:06:06,380 sort of starting and we think generally 131 00:06:12,730 --> 00:06:10,310 I'm 2 mm and what 2010 ish Lily 2012 or 132 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:12,740 something to that effect so you know 133 00:06:16,950 --> 00:06:14,570 he's kind of questioning you know are 134 00:06:19,690 --> 00:06:16,960 there other organizations or other 135 00:06:22,410 --> 00:06:19,700 programs similar today six similar eight 136 00:06:26,980 --> 00:06:22,420 to a tip and so similar to us a p-- that 137 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:26,990 sort of do exploration and examination 138 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:29,410 of the UFO phenomenon or at least 139 00:06:35,830 --> 00:06:32,770 advanced aerial threats that are unknown 140 00:06:38,110 --> 00:06:35,840 and that's kind of you know Paul doesn't 141 00:06:40,150 --> 00:06:38,120 speculate very much so when he wrote his 142 00:06:41,740 --> 00:06:40,160 article all he really stipulated was you 143 00:06:45,190 --> 00:06:41,750 know listen I found similarities between 144 00:06:48,370 --> 00:06:45,200 the a tip and ostap programs and their 145 00:06:50,860 --> 00:06:48,380 verbage and lingo use and their mission 146 00:06:52,540 --> 00:06:50,870 statements and they're very similar to 147 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:52,550 the mission statements and jargon and 148 00:06:59,320 --> 00:06:56,810 lingo of Nasik so my article was sort of 149 00:07:02,140 --> 00:06:59,330 taking some of his information and sort 150 00:07:04,450 --> 00:07:02,150 of bringing it to dr. hal put off of 151 00:07:08,830 --> 00:07:04,460 earth tech international as well as he's 152 00:07:10,530 --> 00:07:08,840 the VP of TTS a write Science and 153 00:07:12,820 --> 00:07:10,540 Technology I believe science technology 154 00:07:15,340 --> 00:07:12,830 and just sort of you know presenting 155 00:07:17,260 --> 00:07:15,350 this to him and and saying hey you know 156 00:07:19,060 --> 00:07:17,270 how have you seen this and and what do 157 00:07:21,490 --> 00:07:19,070 you think of it and can I ask you a few 158 00:07:23,590 --> 00:07:21,500 questions about it and how was good 159 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:23,600 enough to sort of answer a few questions 160 00:07:29,710 --> 00:07:26,090 and give me a few quotes for for a blog 161 00:07:32,430 --> 00:07:29,720 post and ultimately sort of according to 162 00:07:35,020 --> 00:07:32,440 to Hal as well as according to Paul 163 00:07:37,870 --> 00:07:35,030 there's clearly you know a lot of 164 00:07:41,410 --> 00:07:37,880 interest from the military and the 165 00:07:44,830 --> 00:07:41,420 government in regards to advanced sort 166 00:07:47,740 --> 00:07:44,840 anomalous aerial phenomena the problem 167 00:07:49,750 --> 00:07:47,750 is it's all very stovepipes so all of 168 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:49,760 these organizations don't necessarily 169 00:07:54,700 --> 00:07:52,730 know what anyone else is doing or if 170 00:07:57,340 --> 00:07:54,710 they do know they have different 171 00:07:59,680 --> 00:07:57,350 objectives and different projects so 172 00:08:00,910 --> 00:07:59,690 they're they're interested in what 173 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:00,920 everyone else is doing but they don't 174 00:08:06,790 --> 00:08:02,570 talk to each other because they have 175 00:08:08,830 --> 00:08:06,800 different objectives so Nasik might not 176 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:08,840 really have an interest in what a tip 177 00:08:13,690 --> 00:08:11,810 was doing or you know Nasik might not 178 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:13,700 have an interest in what a SAP was up to 179 00:08:17,250 --> 00:08:15,730 because ultimately they're sort of 180 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:17,260 doing it and they may already have a 181 00:08:21,420 --> 00:08:18,970 certain set of data that they're working 182 00:08:23,460 --> 00:08:21,430 from and and they're not gonna share it 183 00:08:26,220 --> 00:08:23,470 with a tip because their missions aren't 184 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:26,230 the same for example and I'm there was 185 00:08:31,290 --> 00:08:29,410 soon to like they each program is trying 186 00:08:33,090 --> 00:08:31,300 to get different kind of funding and 187 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:33,100 everything too so like you know that 188 00:08:36,780 --> 00:08:34,810 wordage probably has a lot to do with it 189 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:36,790 too it is interesting though that I do 190 00:08:40,560 --> 00:08:39,490 use a lot of the same word äj-- yeah and 191 00:08:42,990 --> 00:08:40,570 one thing we need to be clear about in 192 00:08:45,530 --> 00:08:43,000 regards to Nasik Nasik isn't like isn't 193 00:08:48,630 --> 00:08:45,540 looking to get funding like Nasik is 194 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:48,640 heavily funded compared to like a tip 195 00:08:52,620 --> 00:08:50,530 and AA sap i mean we know it's public 196 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:52,630 knowledge now that the a tip program or 197 00:08:57,600 --> 00:08:54,610 whatever it is a a SAP a tip program 198 00:08:59,310 --> 00:08:57,610 whatever the actual truth behind any of 199 00:09:01,230 --> 00:08:59,320 that is it was only fund in purple 200 00:09:03,150 --> 00:09:01,240 twenty two million dollars which is you 201 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:03,160 know a decent chunk of change and the 202 00:09:07,380 --> 00:09:05,410 purpose of these people yeah exactly the 203 00:09:11,550 --> 00:09:07,390 purpose of these programs was to sort of 204 00:09:14,790 --> 00:09:11,560 write reports that Department reports on 205 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:14,800 on exotic physics and exotic technology 206 00:09:18,660 --> 00:09:17,770 and anomalous phenomena fine but it was 207 00:09:20,780 --> 00:09:18,670 only funded at twenty two million 208 00:09:23,390 --> 00:09:20,790 dollars whereas in Asics funding is 209 00:09:27,150 --> 00:09:23,400 massive like may 6th funding is one 210 00:09:28,740 --> 00:09:27,160 unknown because it's not public most of 211 00:09:31,260 --> 00:09:28,750 their work if not all of their work is 212 00:09:33,030 --> 00:09:31,270 classified I've emailed and contacted 213 00:09:35,130 --> 00:09:33,040 several people in Nasik and none of them 214 00:09:36,870 --> 00:09:35,140 have returned my my contacts now listen 215 00:09:40,010 --> 00:09:36,880 I get it I'm a nobody but they're also 216 00:09:44,390 --> 00:09:40,020 not going to write ultimately you know 217 00:09:47,330 --> 00:09:44,400 what some you know UFO writer journalist 218 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:47,340 wants is not on their priority list but 219 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:50,290 their funding is going to definitely be 220 00:09:54,780 --> 00:09:52,930 in the billions of dollars annually but 221 00:09:57,510 --> 00:09:54,790 they're also responsible for keeping 222 00:10:01,560 --> 00:09:57,520 tabs on every other countries you know 223 00:10:05,180 --> 00:10:01,570 aerospace and space programs so they're 224 00:10:07,500 --> 00:10:05,190 definitely gonna have a fair share cash 225 00:10:10,430 --> 00:10:07,510 but this comes up in my book and this is 226 00:10:13,110 --> 00:10:10,440 sort of why I chose to write this post 227 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:13,120 in my book I feature a lot of interviews 228 00:10:17,370 --> 00:10:15,370 from individuals who were involved in 229 00:10:23,790 --> 00:10:17,380 the in the 8 a program like kit green 230 00:10:26,180 --> 00:10:23,800 like how put off and they sort of both 231 00:10:29,639 --> 00:10:26,190 say a similar thing in the sense that 232 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:29,649 when it comes to intelligence gap 233 00:10:34,230 --> 00:10:32,170 during regarding anomalous phenomena you 234 00:10:36,119 --> 00:10:34,240 know the right hand doesn't always know 235 00:10:39,230 --> 00:10:36,129 what the left hand is doing and when it 236 00:10:41,429 --> 00:10:39,240 comes to the military and the government 237 00:10:43,019 --> 00:10:41,439 we're not dealing with two hands here 238 00:10:45,509 --> 00:10:43,029 we're dealing with a few hundred hands 239 00:10:49,739 --> 00:10:45,519 and and they they don't necessarily talk 240 00:10:53,129 --> 00:10:49,749 to each other so you know if there is a 241 00:10:57,119 --> 00:10:53,139 UFO or if there is sort of a conspiracy 242 00:10:59,429 --> 00:10:57,129 let's say regarding you know UAP the 243 00:11:01,019 --> 00:10:59,439 conspiracy is broken up across hundreds 244 00:11:03,059 --> 00:11:01,029 of potential departments and no one 245 00:11:06,989 --> 00:11:03,069 knows what anyone else knows right like 246 00:11:09,900 --> 00:11:06,999 there's no one grand conspiracy the data 247 00:11:11,999 --> 00:11:09,910 is all over the place and and the the 248 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:12,009 people who hold the data don't exactly 249 00:11:18,179 --> 00:11:14,410 know who else has data and what that 250 00:11:19,590 --> 00:11:18,189 data is so it's all over the map and and 251 00:11:22,290 --> 00:11:19,600 they're not necessarily talking to each 252 00:11:24,900 --> 00:11:22,300 other either it's all still piped 253 00:11:27,389 --> 00:11:24,910 basically yeah exactly yeah and I mean 254 00:11:30,150 --> 00:11:27,399 it you know I just conjure this image of 255 00:11:32,460 --> 00:11:30,160 like in a blind octopus you know it's 256 00:11:34,590 --> 00:11:32,470 got like every tentacle has a little bit 257 00:11:37,650 --> 00:11:34,600 but nobody really knows where they're 258 00:11:40,199 --> 00:11:37,660 going and what they're doing and what 259 00:11:43,019 --> 00:11:40,209 the phenomenon represents and what 260 00:11:44,970 --> 00:11:43,029 threat it poses yeah it's it's all very 261 00:11:46,739 --> 00:11:44,980 fascinating and I found it really 262 00:11:49,049 --> 00:11:46,749 interesting that like you said Nasik 263 00:11:53,910 --> 00:11:49,059 been going on for so long so clearly 264 00:11:56,009 --> 00:11:53,920 this is like where the deep classified 265 00:11:59,519 --> 00:11:56,019 stuff is going on whereas something like 266 00:12:00,569 --> 00:11:59,529 a tip eventually became Declassified so 267 00:12:02,759 --> 00:12:00,579 that's why we're hearing about 268 00:12:04,530 --> 00:12:02,769 everything going on with that so I can 269 00:12:05,309 --> 00:12:04,540 only imagine what's going on with Masek 270 00:12:07,590 --> 00:12:05,319 for sure 271 00:12:08,970 --> 00:12:07,600 yeah and part of you know part of you 272 00:12:11,100 --> 00:12:08,980 may not want to know right like there's 273 00:12:14,009 --> 00:12:11,110 also I'm sure they deal with it's like 274 00:12:15,689 --> 00:12:14,019 you know they have you know intelligence 275 00:12:17,039 --> 00:12:15,699 operatives who know exactly you know 276 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:17,049 what the Russians have or the Chinese 277 00:12:20,069 --> 00:12:18,370 have and and you just wouldn't sleep 278 00:12:21,379 --> 00:12:20,079 anymore at night knowing that you know 279 00:12:23,970 --> 00:12:21,389 there's something pointed at your house 280 00:12:26,699 --> 00:12:23,980 you know that you know if that thing 281 00:12:27,869 --> 00:12:26,709 went off you know you don't exist any 282 00:12:29,730 --> 00:12:27,879 you know I think that they probably hold 283 00:12:30,569 --> 00:12:29,740 a lot of Secrets that probably ought to 284 00:12:34,079 --> 00:12:30,579 be kept secret 285 00:12:35,879 --> 00:12:34,089 exactly much more scarier than any you 286 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:35,889 know little flying saucer with little 287 00:12:42,539 --> 00:12:39,490 green men could be I'm sure yeah well 288 00:12:43,079 --> 00:12:42,549 okay so moving on to your book MJ it's 289 00:12:44,969 --> 00:12:43,089 how you 290 00:12:48,749 --> 00:12:44,979 first and foremost is what caught my 291 00:12:53,219 --> 00:12:48,759 attention which is you know the UFO 292 00:12:55,109 --> 00:12:53,229 people a curious culture so can you tell 293 00:12:57,839 --> 00:12:55,119 us how that title of your book why you 294 00:12:58,229 --> 00:12:57,849 chose this a curious culture I love it I 295 00:13:01,529 --> 00:12:58,239 love it 296 00:13:02,909 --> 00:13:01,539 yeah you know it's funny you would you 297 00:13:04,499 --> 00:13:02,919 know this I mean you wrote a book so 298 00:13:06,509 --> 00:13:04,509 anyone who's written a book up there you 299 00:13:08,819 --> 00:13:06,519 know that you start off when you start 300 00:13:10,619 --> 00:13:08,829 talking to you know potentially a 301 00:13:13,379 --> 00:13:10,629 publisher or an editor about your book 302 00:13:15,209 --> 00:13:13,389 and you're pitching the idea it starts 303 00:13:16,909 --> 00:13:15,219 off as one thing you know you have this 304 00:13:19,499 --> 00:13:16,919 this is what I want to write and then 305 00:13:20,819 --> 00:13:19,509 several years go by of you writing it 306 00:13:22,979 --> 00:13:20,829 and then suddenly it's something totally 307 00:13:24,899 --> 00:13:22,989 different right like yeah it's never 308 00:13:27,749 --> 00:13:24,909 what you think it's gonna be so I think 309 00:13:29,369 --> 00:13:27,759 the original title for my book was 310 00:13:31,469 --> 00:13:29,379 something ridiculous like it was like 311 00:13:33,689 --> 00:13:31,479 the initial pitch was something like it 312 00:13:35,549 --> 00:13:33,699 was gonna be partially a philosophical 313 00:13:37,619 --> 00:13:35,559 text and partially sort of a journey 314 00:13:39,239 --> 00:13:37,629 book which it still sort of is a bit of 315 00:13:41,279 --> 00:13:39,249 a journey narrative to it but it was 316 00:13:42,179 --> 00:13:41,289 like the gentleman's guide to UFOs and 317 00:13:42,779 --> 00:13:42,189 then my publisher was like well okay 318 00:13:44,609 --> 00:13:42,789 hold on 319 00:13:46,109 --> 00:13:44,619 don't use gentlemen because you're gonna 320 00:13:47,309 --> 00:13:46,119 alienate 50 percent of like you're right 321 00:13:48,929 --> 00:13:47,319 that's totally true I didn't think of it 322 00:13:50,369 --> 00:13:48,939 okay let's do like The Outsiders guide 323 00:13:52,379 --> 00:13:50,379 or something like that right yeah and 324 00:13:56,999 --> 00:13:52,389 there's gonna be this silly title that 325 00:14:00,749 --> 00:13:57,009 was stupid and it it just didn't it yeah 326 00:14:04,529 --> 00:14:00,759 it was just yeah so anyway it never 327 00:14:06,299 --> 00:14:04,539 worked about and I was as I was writing 328 00:14:10,199 --> 00:14:06,309 the book I started to realize that my 329 00:14:12,419 --> 00:14:10,209 book wasn't about UFOs at all and it 330 00:14:14,339 --> 00:14:12,429 isn't my books about people and it's 331 00:14:17,849 --> 00:14:14,349 about people who pursue the UFO 332 00:14:22,229 --> 00:14:17,859 phenomenon and I also wanted the book to 333 00:14:26,009 --> 00:14:22,239 be approachable to people who both sort 334 00:14:29,009 --> 00:14:26,019 of pursue the UFO phenomenon with 335 00:14:30,749 --> 00:14:29,019 incredible belief and and vigor and zeal 336 00:14:33,719 --> 00:14:30,759 and I wanted my book to appeal as well 337 00:14:34,799 --> 00:14:33,729 to skeptics and debunkers who who would 338 00:14:38,099 --> 00:14:34,809 sort of maybe enjoyed the more 339 00:14:39,629 --> 00:14:38,109 sociological aspects of the book and I 340 00:14:43,669 --> 00:14:39,639 was sitting there and I was you know 341 00:14:45,899 --> 00:14:43,679 wracking my brain for a title and then I 342 00:14:48,119 --> 00:14:45,909 don't know what happened I think I was 343 00:14:50,729 --> 00:14:48,129 looking at Mark O'Connell's website he 344 00:14:52,229 --> 00:14:50,739 wrote the Close Encounters Man or 345 00:14:54,449 --> 00:14:52,239 something like I was somewhere on the 346 00:14:56,189 --> 00:14:54,459 internet looking at UFO stuff and then I 347 00:14:56,700 --> 00:14:56,199 stumbled into the picture of J Allen 348 00:14:59,730 --> 00:14:56,710 Hynek 349 00:15:01,230 --> 00:14:59,740 standing in front of the Waltrip motel 350 00:15:04,230 --> 00:15:01,240 sign outside of Piedmont Missouri in 351 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:04,240 1973 took famous UFO sort of historical 352 00:15:08,820 --> 00:15:07,210 picture and he's standing in front of 353 00:15:12,150 --> 00:15:08,830 because he went there was a UFO flap in 354 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:12,160 Missouri and he and an associate of his 355 00:15:18,150 --> 00:15:13,810 by the name of Ted Phillips who took the 356 00:15:23,220 --> 00:15:18,160 picture went to investigate this UFO 357 00:15:23,820 --> 00:15:23,230 flap in 73 and the town because of this 358 00:15:26,820 --> 00:15:23,830 flap 359 00:15:29,519 --> 00:15:26,830 the motel put up this big sign that said 360 00:15:32,070 --> 00:15:29,529 welcome UFO people and it's this big 361 00:15:33,930 --> 00:15:32,080 billboard that J Allen Hynek is standing 362 00:15:36,870 --> 00:15:33,940 in front of sort of this big goggle 363 00:15:40,380 --> 00:15:36,880 sunglasses on his face and it's it's 364 00:15:42,300 --> 00:15:40,390 such a glorious picture because it 365 00:15:42,750 --> 00:15:42,310 encapsulates I think what the books 366 00:15:48,300 --> 00:15:42,760 about 367 00:15:50,970 --> 00:15:48,310 right individuals who will go to some 368 00:15:53,930 --> 00:15:50,980 town in the middle of nowhere Missouri 369 00:15:57,470 --> 00:15:53,940 because there's UFOs there and allocate 370 00:16:01,260 --> 00:15:57,480 weeks of their life to investigating it 371 00:16:03,060 --> 00:16:01,270 and they're driven by something right 372 00:16:06,449 --> 00:16:03,070 like there's stuff to the phenomenon 373 00:16:08,250 --> 00:16:06,459 that drives people to it or maybe pulls 374 00:16:10,050 --> 00:16:08,260 people to it I don't know but this 375 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:10,060 picture was sort of perfect and I saw it 376 00:16:14,579 --> 00:16:11,650 and it just hit me like yep there's the 377 00:16:16,019 --> 00:16:14,589 title right there the UFO people and 378 00:16:18,420 --> 00:16:16,029 then the curious culture just kind of 379 00:16:21,870 --> 00:16:18,430 came right after because it's kind of 380 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:21,880 just kind of flowed I suppose and it was 381 00:16:26,910 --> 00:16:23,290 it was great you know and actually the 382 00:16:28,710 --> 00:16:26,920 the cover isn't public yet it's almost 383 00:16:30,900 --> 00:16:28,720 ready it's just kind of being finalized 384 00:16:34,079 --> 00:16:30,910 by the publisher but the cover does have 385 00:16:36,180 --> 00:16:34,089 that photograph on it and I was enough 386 00:16:38,340 --> 00:16:36,190 to get in touch with Ted Phillips and 387 00:16:40,980 --> 00:16:38,350 his wife who graciously gave me 388 00:16:45,030 --> 00:16:40,990 permission to use the photograph for the 389 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:45,040 cover so it was really neat to you know 390 00:16:48,810 --> 00:16:47,290 talk to his wife and and and and when I 391 00:16:52,350 --> 00:16:48,820 was speaking to his wife he was quite 392 00:16:54,540 --> 00:16:52,360 he's quite ill so you know it was fine 393 00:16:56,220 --> 00:16:54,550 in and and you know they sort of gave 394 00:16:57,810 --> 00:16:56,230 the book the blessing you know and then 395 00:16:59,880 --> 00:16:57,820 it was very funny probably she gave me 396 00:17:03,569 --> 00:16:59,890 her home address and was like I expect a 397 00:17:07,380 --> 00:17:03,579 copy that's what I'm you know like so 398 00:17:09,630 --> 00:17:07,390 I'm soaking up an angle yeah yeah I mean 399 00:17:09,900 --> 00:17:09,640 it is for those in the UFO field it's 400 00:17:13,110 --> 00:17:09,910 such 401 00:17:15,180 --> 00:17:13,120 iconic image of dr. J Allen Hynek and 402 00:17:16,710 --> 00:17:15,190 like you said it represents everything 403 00:17:19,500 --> 00:17:16,720 your book sort of stands for you've got 404 00:17:22,230 --> 00:17:19,510 the UFO people both being those 405 00:17:24,990 --> 00:17:22,240 experiencing it and those researching it 406 00:17:26,670 --> 00:17:25,000 and that's kind of what really really 407 00:17:29,610 --> 00:17:26,680 pulled me in right from the introduction 408 00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:29,620 of your book you refer to the the UFO 409 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:32,130 phenomenon and the UFO subculture as 410 00:17:36,660 --> 00:17:34,810 ghosts with in our everyday society 411 00:17:38,250 --> 00:17:36,670 which is really cool I've never really 412 00:17:40,230 --> 00:17:38,260 thought of it that way and you use the 413 00:17:42,990 --> 00:17:40,240 you sort of work off of the French 414 00:17:45,870 --> 00:17:43,000 philosopher Jacques Derrida so could you 415 00:17:48,110 --> 00:17:45,880 maybe run us through why you chose his 416 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:48,120 foundations of philosophy I know 417 00:17:53,670 --> 00:17:50,650 philosophy is a big thing with you and 418 00:17:55,110 --> 00:17:53,680 that's why I love having you on man why 419 00:17:57,090 --> 00:17:55,120 did you choose to sort of use this 420 00:18:01,020 --> 00:17:57,100 foundation for this subculture of 421 00:18:03,060 --> 00:18:01,030 ufology I guess yeah I think you know if 422 00:18:04,410 --> 00:18:03,070 for your longtime listeners and all the 423 00:18:05,790 --> 00:18:04,420 shows I've sort of been on previously on 424 00:18:07,590 --> 00:18:05,800 somewhere in the skies I think they've 425 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:07,600 sort of heard me say it many times but 426 00:18:13,380 --> 00:18:10,930 I'm very confident that ufology is 427 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:13,390 actually philosophy if you follow Jesus 428 00:18:17,310 --> 00:18:15,730 thing like I'm gonna sort of argue a bit 429 00:18:21,420 --> 00:18:17,320 that there really is no ufology proper 430 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:21,430 but the the the art of engaging with the 431 00:18:28,290 --> 00:18:24,490 UFO phenomenon or or UFO discourse is 432 00:18:33,150 --> 00:18:28,300 really a philosophical project so 433 00:18:35,070 --> 00:18:33,160 finding a philosopher who who deals with 434 00:18:38,300 --> 00:18:35,080 culture the same way sort of I interpret 435 00:18:41,100 --> 00:18:38,310 culture was was was not easy and and and 436 00:18:43,770 --> 00:18:41,110 breeding Derrida is is always a struggle 437 00:18:46,950 --> 00:18:43,780 because he doesn't make sense but maybe 438 00:18:50,100 --> 00:18:46,960 that's purposeful but his claim I 439 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:50,110 suppose is that the way we interpret 440 00:18:58,920 --> 00:18:55,330 reality is all mediated by language and 441 00:19:03,360 --> 00:18:58,930 how we make and give things meaning so 442 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:03,370 so Derrida's project is anytime you give 443 00:19:07,710 --> 00:19:05,890 anything meaning or definition you are 444 00:19:10,110 --> 00:19:07,720 creating a reality for it 445 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:10,120 so Derrida I would say listen reality is 446 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:11,410 real in the sense that you know things 447 00:19:15,690 --> 00:19:13,690 exist in the universe and and and you 448 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:15,700 know objects are there like there is an 449 00:19:22,770 --> 00:19:19,690 objective reality but without us it 450 00:19:23,430 --> 00:19:22,780 really has no meaning we apply meaning 451 00:19:26,009 --> 00:19:23,440 to 452 00:19:26,460 --> 00:19:26,019 around us so a coffee cup is a coffee 453 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:26,470 cup 454 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:28,450 not because of some objective coffee 455 00:19:34,169 --> 00:19:30,129 compass it's a coffee cup because we say 456 00:19:36,570 --> 00:19:34,179 it's a coffee cup and in regards to to 457 00:19:38,399 --> 00:19:36,580 his his whole philosophical project is 458 00:19:41,700 --> 00:19:38,409 he says you know whenever you deal with 459 00:19:44,190 --> 00:19:41,710 any meaning whatsoever in reality you 460 00:19:47,399 --> 00:19:44,200 can tear that meaning down and what he 461 00:19:49,980 --> 00:19:47,409 terms deconstruct it so you can kind of 462 00:19:53,070 --> 00:19:49,990 go through why certain ideas we have 463 00:19:56,669 --> 00:19:53,080 have the ideas that sort of are in them 464 00:19:58,230 --> 00:19:56,679 you know why are why is the masculine 465 00:20:00,389 --> 00:19:58,240 masculine or why is the feminine 466 00:20:03,570 --> 00:20:00,399 feminine we can break those ideas down 467 00:20:06,539 --> 00:20:03,580 and see where they came from we sort of 468 00:20:08,340 --> 00:20:06,549 create meaning in turn but ultimately we 469 00:20:10,649 --> 00:20:08,350 can kind of start to chip away at the 470 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:10,659 different layers and filters we've 471 00:20:15,180 --> 00:20:13,330 applied to the world around us and he 472 00:20:17,249 --> 00:20:15,190 says there's sort of one thing though 473 00:20:20,519 --> 00:20:17,259 that that typically defies meaning and 474 00:20:21,899 --> 00:20:20,529 he sort of creates this thing as a sort 475 00:20:23,789 --> 00:20:21,909 of undefinable thing or an 476 00:20:25,590 --> 00:20:23,799 undestructible thing and he says the 477 00:20:29,519 --> 00:20:25,600 ghost is a great example of this right a 478 00:20:32,820 --> 00:20:29,529 specter is something that cannot be I 479 00:20:34,710 --> 00:20:32,830 guess deconstructed because it exists 480 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:34,720 and it does not exist right ghosts by 481 00:20:38,940 --> 00:20:36,850 their very nature are real and not real 482 00:20:40,950 --> 00:20:38,950 they're fact and fiction they're they're 483 00:20:43,049 --> 00:20:40,960 their reality and mythology 484 00:20:46,740 --> 00:20:43,059 simultaneously and we can't necessarily 485 00:20:48,029 --> 00:20:46,750 kind of break them down mmm and in his 486 00:20:50,100 --> 00:20:48,039 philosophical project he's really 487 00:20:53,220 --> 00:20:50,110 talking about sort of not really ghosts 488 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:53,230 as like the spirits of the dead but he 489 00:20:56,909 --> 00:20:54,970 talks about ghosts more as sort of our 490 00:20:58,350 --> 00:20:56,919 shared experiences as a society and it 491 00:21:00,090 --> 00:20:58,360 gets all quite philosophical and I go 492 00:21:03,269 --> 00:21:00,100 through that in the book but to sort of 493 00:21:06,419 --> 00:21:03,279 quickly boil this down the UFO community 494 00:21:08,730 --> 00:21:06,429 is sort of similar to his notion of the 495 00:21:10,799 --> 00:21:08,740 ghost the UFO community exists and it 496 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:10,809 does not exist very similarly just like 497 00:21:14,039 --> 00:21:13,450 the UFO the UFO exists and does not 498 00:21:16,830 --> 00:21:14,049 exist 499 00:21:20,430 --> 00:21:16,840 it's a specter it shows up and it 500 00:21:23,190 --> 00:21:20,440 disappears it it to a lot of people it's 501 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:23,200 real it's a real physical object that's 502 00:21:27,509 --> 00:21:24,730 tangible that they can touch they've 503 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:27,519 been aboard that they've experienced in 504 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:31,330 some way not just seeing it but engaging 505 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:33,250 with it communing with it in some way 506 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:36,530 but others the 507 00:21:43,870 --> 00:21:40,610 UFO is a myth it's its folktale it's 508 00:21:46,660 --> 00:21:43,880 it's just lore it's it's mythology right 509 00:21:48,370 --> 00:21:46,670 so the UFO exists in this dual state and 510 00:21:50,890 --> 00:21:48,380 the people who pursue UFOs 511 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:50,900 you know us the UFO people we're also 512 00:21:56,350 --> 00:21:53,570 ghosts we sort of haunt mainstream 513 00:21:59,320 --> 00:21:56,360 culture and popular culture we have our 514 00:22:02,320 --> 00:21:59,330 feet in two worlds right we on the one 515 00:22:04,270 --> 00:22:02,330 hand we go to Starbucks and drink coffee 516 00:22:06,730 --> 00:22:04,280 we drive our kids to dance class you 517 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:06,740 know we we buy minivans and and and 518 00:22:11,470 --> 00:22:09,050 apartments and houses and we have day 519 00:22:13,210 --> 00:22:11,480 jobs and we and we have a bank account 520 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:13,220 and pair mortgage like you know we live 521 00:22:17,530 --> 00:22:15,890 that life that normal daily sort of what 522 00:22:19,810 --> 00:22:17,540 we would deem real life quote unquote 523 00:22:22,300 --> 00:22:19,820 but then on the flip side were also a 524 00:22:24,610 --> 00:22:22,310 group of people who believe in things 525 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:24,620 that ought not to exist right we believe 526 00:22:28,630 --> 00:22:26,450 in UFOs and we believe in ghosts and we 527 00:22:31,690 --> 00:22:28,640 believe in potentially Bigfoot and all 528 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:31,700 of these other paranormal phenomena that 529 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:34,010 challenge the other side right they 530 00:22:37,390 --> 00:22:35,690 challenge the idea of you should go to 531 00:22:39,550 --> 00:22:37,400 Starbucks and have a mortgage and driver 532 00:22:42,910 --> 00:22:39,560 kids to dance class they challenge the 533 00:22:44,830 --> 00:22:42,920 very fabric of our daily lives so how do 534 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:44,840 we reconcile this right how do we as 535 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:46,970 people who believe in flying saucers and 536 00:22:52,090 --> 00:22:48,970 UFOs and interdimensional beings 537 00:22:54,430 --> 00:22:52,100 reconcile the fact that I still like pay 538 00:22:56,770 --> 00:22:54,440 a mortgage and have a bank account and 539 00:23:01,480 --> 00:22:56,780 for some reason like go to work every 540 00:23:03,670 --> 00:23:01,490 day and like to what end right so we we 541 00:23:07,540 --> 00:23:03,680 get stuck in this ghostly realm this 542 00:23:10,030 --> 00:23:07,550 in-between realm of our daily lives that 543 00:23:12,340 --> 00:23:10,040 we would say are real is real and then 544 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:12,350 this UFO world that we would say is real 545 00:23:17,950 --> 00:23:15,050 and they're an incredible conflict with 546 00:23:20,110 --> 00:23:17,960 each other believing that there's a 547 00:23:22,210 --> 00:23:20,120 nonhuman intelligence and a phenomenon 548 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:22,220 that's real really ought to challenge 549 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:24,050 the fact that you go to work every day 550 00:23:28,300 --> 00:23:25,970 to earn a paycheck so you can buy air 551 00:23:30,100 --> 00:23:28,310 jordans like it really should challenge 552 00:23:32,050 --> 00:23:30,110 these ideas 553 00:23:33,910 --> 00:23:32,060 it should challenge you know the ideas 554 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:33,920 of of male and female it should 555 00:23:37,540 --> 00:23:35,690 challenge the ideas of race it should 556 00:23:41,380 --> 00:23:37,550 challenge all of these concepts because 557 00:23:43,780 --> 00:23:41,390 at the end of the day what happens to a 558 00:23:47,050 --> 00:23:43,790 human when they come face to face with 559 00:23:49,180 --> 00:23:47,060 an intelligence that isn't human but is 560 00:23:50,360 --> 00:23:49,190 as intelligent if not more intelligent 561 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:50,370 right 562 00:23:57,830 --> 00:23:54,810 how does that alter or or challenge our 563 00:24:01,190 --> 00:23:57,840 notions of ourselves so that's kind of 564 00:24:03,740 --> 00:24:01,200 what the book dives into um and it does 565 00:24:05,150 --> 00:24:03,750 so with with a I would want to say a lot 566 00:24:07,070 --> 00:24:05,160 of philosophy I tried to keep it as 567 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:07,080 simple as possible because I want to 568 00:24:13,250 --> 00:24:09,930 make it approachable I think sometimes 569 00:24:14,030 --> 00:24:13,260 it gets a little too wordy but that's 570 00:24:17,060 --> 00:24:14,040 kind of the point 571 00:24:20,900 --> 00:24:17,070 we the UFO people are a very 572 00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:20,910 countercultural movement but in our 573 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:23,370 counter cultural Nisour get lost and we 574 00:24:26,030 --> 00:24:25,410 we end up in this ghostly realm this 575 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:26,040 in-between 576 00:24:32,780 --> 00:24:30,090 this gap world yeah but yeah between 577 00:24:33,500 --> 00:24:32,790 sort of reality and mythology right 578 00:24:35,510 --> 00:24:33,510 right 579 00:24:38,120 --> 00:24:35,520 and we you know we sort of flow in and 580 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:38,130 out of each sometimes with more ease 581 00:24:42,820 --> 00:24:40,530 than a lot of people may think you know 582 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:42,830 like you said I I spend my nights 583 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:46,290 looking into this stuff and interviewing 584 00:24:52,010 --> 00:24:48,690 a witness who said you know a craft came 585 00:24:54,260 --> 00:24:52,020 down and they they saw being piloting 586 00:24:57,140 --> 00:24:54,270 this and then and then you know the next 587 00:24:59,180 --> 00:24:57,150 day I have to go to my nine-to-five or 588 00:25:01,310 --> 00:24:59,190 whatever job and like you said make 589 00:25:05,450 --> 00:25:01,320 money to pay the bills and the things 590 00:25:08,090 --> 00:25:05,460 are in such a juxtaposition that I feel 591 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:08,100 that way I feel like I'm like floating 592 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:10,290 above myself sometimes watching this 593 00:25:16,910 --> 00:25:14,730 weird play play out but it's not like 594 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:16,920 having that impact that it should 595 00:25:21,860 --> 00:25:19,290 someone tells me that they were abducted 596 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:21,870 by aliens like that should change the 597 00:25:26,810 --> 00:25:24,570 paradigm right there for the person Adam 598 00:25:29,390 --> 00:25:26,820 the experience and the person hearing it 599 00:25:31,340 --> 00:25:29,400 and investigating it yet like you say 600 00:25:34,430 --> 00:25:31,350 like life goes on 601 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:34,440 these sort of cultural and society 602 00:25:39,890 --> 00:25:37,010 driving norms we've created ourselves 603 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:39,900 they they sort of stop that you know 604 00:25:45,470 --> 00:25:41,970 they they sort of put a stamp down on 605 00:25:48,350 --> 00:25:45,480 these unbelievable in many ways things 606 00:25:50,750 --> 00:25:48,360 that we we seem to come across and what 607 00:25:53,180 --> 00:25:50,760 what I really enjoyed is that you you 608 00:25:55,190 --> 00:25:53,190 stress the importance of the UFO witness 609 00:25:57,410 --> 00:25:55,200 which you know is like my thing you know 610 00:25:59,000 --> 00:25:57,420 that's all that's what I witnesses are 611 00:26:01,160 --> 00:25:59,010 my thing I love them and many 612 00:26:02,610 --> 00:26:01,170 researchers they ignore that entire 613 00:26:04,799 --> 00:26:02,620 aspect of 614 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:04,809 studies they go right for the science 615 00:26:09,450 --> 00:26:07,570 and I do not blame them for that but in 616 00:26:11,970 --> 00:26:09,460 your book what sort of importance do you 617 00:26:14,909 --> 00:26:11,980 put on the witness before we even get to 618 00:26:17,820 --> 00:26:14,919 the the researchers and the outsiders as 619 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:17,830 a word yeah well you know the I feature 620 00:26:23,940 --> 00:26:21,250 I feature you know one witness mainly in 621 00:26:27,899 --> 00:26:23,950 my book so the the the the beginning of 622 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:27,909 my book is really my journey into the 623 00:26:33,180 --> 00:26:31,330 UFO subculture and then sort of grew 624 00:26:35,700 --> 00:26:33,190 following this one particular witness 625 00:26:37,740 --> 00:26:35,710 kind of through various I don't want to 626 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:37,750 say sort of tales but tales might be a 627 00:26:43,919 --> 00:26:40,690 good word and and and her experiences 628 00:26:47,340 --> 00:26:43,929 and you know I want to stipulate early 629 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:47,350 on that I have no evidence no physical 630 00:26:51,120 --> 00:26:49,690 or tangible evidence that tells me that 631 00:26:53,370 --> 00:26:51,130 what she experienced was real or not 632 00:26:55,889 --> 00:26:53,380 like I just don't know and I clearly 633 00:26:58,710 --> 00:26:55,899 indicate this in the book and but 634 00:27:01,380 --> 00:26:58,720 ultimately that is the UFO phenomenon in 635 00:27:06,029 --> 00:27:01,390 general right there is no real tangible 636 00:27:07,769 --> 00:27:06,039 evidence that proves or disproves the 637 00:27:09,180 --> 00:27:07,779 source of the UFO phenomenon I think 638 00:27:10,980 --> 00:27:09,190 there's enough tangible evidence out 639 00:27:12,990 --> 00:27:10,990 there to prove that there is a UFO 640 00:27:14,580 --> 00:27:13,000 phenomenon there's enough tangible 641 00:27:16,830 --> 00:27:14,590 evidence out there to prove that 642 00:27:18,630 --> 00:27:16,840 something weird is happening something 643 00:27:19,799 --> 00:27:18,640 anomalous but that's about it 644 00:27:21,269 --> 00:27:19,809 I don't think there's any sort of 645 00:27:23,789 --> 00:27:21,279 tangible evidence anyone's really seen 646 00:27:27,389 --> 00:27:23,799 that would suggest that you know this is 647 00:27:29,940 --> 00:27:27,399 what the UFO phenomenon is caused by or 648 00:27:31,710 --> 00:27:29,950 or or whatever so so you know I want to 649 00:27:33,769 --> 00:27:31,720 be clear that I'm not gonna present any 650 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:33,779 evidence of a UFO case that's gonna 651 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:36,970 really be you know a smoking gun let's 652 00:27:41,360 --> 00:27:39,010 say in this particular case in regards 653 00:27:44,460 --> 00:27:41,370 to a witness but at the end of the day 654 00:27:47,549 --> 00:27:44,470 witnesses and experiencers are really 655 00:27:51,120 --> 00:27:47,559 our only connection to the phenomena 656 00:27:54,060 --> 00:27:51,130 they're they're the only ones who have 657 00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:54,070 dealt with it directly right so so 658 00:27:59,639 --> 00:27:57,490 they've they've been made ghosts right i 659 00:28:01,950 --> 00:27:59,649 I have willingly chosen to walk into 660 00:28:05,190 --> 00:28:01,960 this world and become a ghost 661 00:28:07,380 --> 00:28:05,200 as a result right I I fully admit to 662 00:28:09,510 --> 00:28:07,390 like I said driving my kids go to dance 663 00:28:11,399 --> 00:28:09,520 class she goes to theater class drama 664 00:28:12,659 --> 00:28:11,409 class she's three if it's not really a 665 00:28:13,710 --> 00:28:12,669 theater class I have to admit listen but 666 00:28:14,789 --> 00:28:13,720 here's a quick aside like it's a bunch 667 00:28:16,020 --> 00:28:14,799 of little kids who run around the room 668 00:28:18,060 --> 00:28:16,030 and it's the funniest thing 669 00:28:20,940 --> 00:28:18,070 and they pretend and it's like super 670 00:28:22,830 --> 00:28:20,950 cute but they're toddlers so I call it 671 00:28:25,950 --> 00:28:22,840 fader Broadway isn't much different my 672 00:28:27,210 --> 00:28:25,960 man yes that 9:00 to 5:00 yeah and I use 673 00:28:29,970 --> 00:28:27,220 the term theater like I'm doing air 674 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:29,980 quotes with my fingers right now but you 675 00:28:34,500 --> 00:28:31,090 know like I live in that world where I 676 00:28:35,940 --> 00:28:34,510 Drive my kid to to theater class and and 677 00:28:39,630 --> 00:28:35,950 I live that life you know I drink my 678 00:28:42,300 --> 00:28:39,640 coffee but then like you say I come home 679 00:28:44,100 --> 00:28:42,310 and I deal with UFOs so I've chosen to 680 00:28:45,950 --> 00:28:44,110 live this life willingly whether it's 681 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:45,960 mistake or not I don't know yet but 682 00:28:50,700 --> 00:28:47,890 experiences and witnesses are the ones 683 00:28:53,250 --> 00:28:50,710 who don't have the choice so I have 684 00:28:55,170 --> 00:28:53,260 chosen to go into this ghostly realm and 685 00:28:59,040 --> 00:28:55,180 live in it where the experience was 686 00:29:01,650 --> 00:28:59,050 forced to by the phenomenon assuming 687 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:01,660 they're like extremely assuming their 688 00:29:05,550 --> 00:29:03,850 experience was caused by the phenomenon 689 00:29:08,970 --> 00:29:05,560 right like there's gonna be individuals 690 00:29:10,380 --> 00:29:08,980 who hoax and lie and experience mental 691 00:29:11,670 --> 00:29:10,390 breakdowns and illusion and stuff like 692 00:29:14,490 --> 00:29:11,680 that and illusion and stuff like that so 693 00:29:18,620 --> 00:29:14,500 you know not every single UFO experience 694 00:29:22,410 --> 00:29:18,630 or or or or abductee or contactee is 695 00:29:25,290 --> 00:29:22,420 100% legitimate by numbers alone in no 696 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:25,300 community of people is any one sort of 697 00:29:30,270 --> 00:29:27,010 one hundred percent right all the time 698 00:29:31,350 --> 00:29:30,280 in any endeavor right so you know you 699 00:29:33,870 --> 00:29:31,360 know you're always gonna have a doctor 700 00:29:37,110 --> 00:29:33,880 who's insane for example and so in in in 701 00:29:40,050 --> 00:29:37,120 the UFO community our situation but like 702 00:29:44,190 --> 00:29:40,060 I said they are placed into this ghostly 703 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:44,200 realm by the phenomenon and and for some 704 00:29:49,470 --> 00:29:46,690 reason they're the ones right and 705 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:49,480 they're the ones who who fall into this 706 00:29:54,630 --> 00:29:51,850 gap whether it's on purpose or whether 707 00:29:58,590 --> 00:29:54,640 it was by accident or something in 708 00:30:00,540 --> 00:29:58,600 between they were selected in some way 709 00:30:02,850 --> 00:30:00,550 and I think the witness and the 710 00:30:04,980 --> 00:30:02,860 experiencer are essential to UFO studies 711 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:04,990 I think we need to sort of handle that 712 00:30:09,150 --> 00:30:07,050 all with with kid gloves sometimes 713 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:09,160 because like I said I don't know if 714 00:30:12,900 --> 00:30:10,810 every single experience you're out there 715 00:30:17,100 --> 00:30:12,910 is legitimately an experience or of 716 00:30:19,260 --> 00:30:17,110 something anomalous but really they're 717 00:30:21,270 --> 00:30:19,270 there they're the bread and butter you 718 00:30:22,980 --> 00:30:21,280 need them because without the witnesses 719 00:30:25,260 --> 00:30:22,990 and without the experiences experiences 720 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:25,270 there are no UFOs yeah and there are no 721 00:30:28,500 --> 00:30:26,770 alien abductions and there are no 722 00:30:29,940 --> 00:30:28,510 interdimensional beings or whatever you 723 00:30:32,039 --> 00:30:29,950 want to believe 724 00:30:33,149 --> 00:30:32,049 yep takes two to tango for sure and I 725 00:30:35,789 --> 00:30:33,159 mean okay doesn't it 726 00:30:37,649 --> 00:30:35,799 yes so we have yeah we have the the 727 00:30:40,110 --> 00:30:37,659 experiencer or the witness we have the 728 00:30:43,590 --> 00:30:40,120 ones researching it like you and I and 729 00:30:45,779 --> 00:30:43,600 then we have this third you know that 730 00:30:48,090 --> 00:30:45,789 make up the trio of the subculture that 731 00:30:50,850 --> 00:30:48,100 you've sort of coined here and that's 732 00:30:53,460 --> 00:30:50,860 the general public so I'd love to sort 733 00:30:56,399 --> 00:30:53,470 of tackle that with you next men we okay 734 00:30:57,840 --> 00:30:56,409 so without the experiencers yes we would 735 00:31:00,299 --> 00:30:57,850 have nothing to study but then we have 736 00:31:02,669 --> 00:31:00,309 the general public who don't want to be 737 00:31:05,370 --> 00:31:02,679 ghosts who don't want to dip their toes 738 00:31:08,029 --> 00:31:05,380 into a lot of this so would you say 739 00:31:11,909 --> 00:31:08,039 that's sort of like the third and final 740 00:31:13,860 --> 00:31:11,919 you know benchmark to the the subculture 741 00:31:15,659 --> 00:31:13,870 you know we I want to be cautious right 742 00:31:17,669 --> 00:31:15,669 because I think I think there's a huge 743 00:31:20,580 --> 00:31:17,679 segment of the general public that is 744 00:31:23,610 --> 00:31:20,590 interested okay in in the UFO phenomenon 745 00:31:25,159 --> 00:31:23,620 they just don't talk about it they they 746 00:31:29,269 --> 00:31:25,169 and that could be for a lot of reasons 747 00:31:32,190 --> 00:31:29,279 or they're they're interested to a point 748 00:31:36,870 --> 00:31:32,200 but they have other priorities right 749 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:36,880 other interests I think where we bump 750 00:31:42,870 --> 00:31:40,330 into the biggest issue with the general 751 00:31:46,289 --> 00:31:42,880 public is is the general public that 752 00:31:48,810 --> 00:31:46,299 typically holds the reins over the media 753 00:31:51,870 --> 00:31:48,820 or holds the reins over you know 754 00:31:53,940 --> 00:31:51,880 scientific grant funding or any academic 755 00:32:00,029 --> 00:31:53,950 grant funding the general public that 756 00:32:02,460 --> 00:32:00,039 can can really be of use to getting more 757 00:32:05,850 --> 00:32:02,470 people looking at the UFO question are 758 00:32:08,159 --> 00:32:05,860 too conservative not politically but too 759 00:32:12,110 --> 00:32:08,169 conservative maybe economically are too 760 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:12,120 conservative in their own viewpoints to 761 00:32:17,129 --> 00:32:15,490 pursue it right so when you look at the 762 00:32:18,389 --> 00:32:17,139 main reason for example like when you 763 00:32:20,490 --> 00:32:18,399 look at scientific scientists for 764 00:32:23,250 --> 00:32:20,500 example the vast majority of scientists 765 00:32:25,259 --> 00:32:23,260 I have little doubt are incredibly 766 00:32:27,690 --> 00:32:25,269 interested by anomalous phenomena 767 00:32:32,070 --> 00:32:27,700 whether it's UFOs or or ghost sightings 768 00:32:32,460 --> 00:32:32,080 or cryptozoology or parapsychology or 769 00:32:34,110 --> 00:32:32,470 anything 770 00:32:37,289 --> 00:32:34,120 I'm sure tons of scientists are 771 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:37,299 fascinated by the subject but they don't 772 00:32:42,149 --> 00:32:40,570 talk about it publicly because the men 773 00:32:43,500 --> 00:32:42,159 and women above them who hold the purse 774 00:32:45,990 --> 00:32:43,510 strings 775 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:46,000 are not right and when you look at 776 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:49,090 scientists who get to the point where 777 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:51,490 they're the ones who handle grant money 778 00:32:56,460 --> 00:32:53,890 or handle academic funding or project 779 00:32:59,490 --> 00:32:56,470 money they're pretty conservative right 780 00:33:02,420 --> 00:32:59,500 like to to become someone who chooses to 781 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:02,430 no longer do research but fund research 782 00:33:10,050 --> 00:33:05,050 you're not really a risk taker you're 783 00:33:13,290 --> 00:33:10,060 the one who holds the cash to to to give 784 00:33:14,940 --> 00:33:13,300 to the risk takers so if you already 785 00:33:17,550 --> 00:33:14,950 have a group of people who are 786 00:33:19,110 --> 00:33:17,560 relatively conservative holding all the 787 00:33:21,810 --> 00:33:19,120 money yet you have a whole bunch of 788 00:33:24,450 --> 00:33:21,820 scientists who are interested and risk 789 00:33:26,100 --> 00:33:24,460 takers but know that if they go to those 790 00:33:30,270 --> 00:33:26,110 conservative people and say hey I want 791 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:30,280 to study weird stuff you know those 792 00:33:33,690 --> 00:33:31,690 those conservative people are gonna say 793 00:33:35,460 --> 00:33:33,700 no right they're gonna say no listen 794 00:33:36,990 --> 00:33:35,470 this is not what science is about no 795 00:33:40,050 --> 00:33:37,000 this is not what our universities about 796 00:33:42,030 --> 00:33:40,060 no this would look bad in the media bla 797 00:33:44,730 --> 00:33:42,040 bla bla bla bla bla so no we're not 798 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:44,740 gonna give you funding and then next 799 00:33:47,490 --> 00:33:46,090 time you come looking for funding you 800 00:33:48,780 --> 00:33:47,500 know that person oh hey aren't you the 801 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:48,790 guy who is interesting you know photos 802 00:33:51,510 --> 00:33:50,290 or aren't you that scientist you know 803 00:33:54,750 --> 00:33:51,520 last time I spoke to you you were really 804 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:54,760 fascinated by Bigfoot listen lady I'm 805 00:33:58,920 --> 00:33:56,290 not gonna give you money you know like I 806 00:34:00,180 --> 00:33:58,930 think that this happens and I think that 807 00:34:01,500 --> 00:34:00,190 this is common across sort of most 808 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:01,510 academics and those people I think 809 00:34:05,370 --> 00:34:03,250 people are generally interested in UFOs 810 00:34:06,990 --> 00:34:05,380 I mean obviously people are interested 811 00:34:10,050 --> 00:34:07,000 in UFOs and and ghosts and all that you 812 00:34:13,830 --> 00:34:10,060 look at any media website New York Times 813 00:34:15,570 --> 00:34:13,840 to the Atlantic to Huffington Post 814 00:34:17,940 --> 00:34:15,580 whatever you look at what articles get 815 00:34:19,650 --> 00:34:17,950 the most clicks it's all paranormal 816 00:34:22,530 --> 00:34:19,660 related yeah all the time because people 817 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:22,540 are inherently fascinated but those I 818 00:34:28,770 --> 00:34:26,410 think in positions of power because 819 00:34:31,170 --> 00:34:28,780 they're not interested because again 820 00:34:32,340 --> 00:34:31,180 they're generally conservative and again 821 00:34:34,020 --> 00:34:32,350 I do mean politically conservative like 822 00:34:35,970 --> 00:34:34,030 not right-wing conservatives 823 00:34:38,790 --> 00:34:35,980 conservative in in general like 824 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:38,800 economically or whatever they're not 825 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:41,290 going to pursue those things openly and 826 00:34:45,270 --> 00:34:43,930 seriously yeah so I think that I don't 827 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:45,280 know I the general public is kind of 828 00:34:47,940 --> 00:34:46,570 this weird cat 829 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:47,950 they're pretty ghostly themselves maybe 830 00:34:50,370 --> 00:34:49,330 you know like they're they're interested 831 00:34:51,390 --> 00:34:50,380 but they can't talk about it much like a 832 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:51,400 ghost you know they're interested in 833 00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:53,610 haunting but they don't I don't know 834 00:34:58,040 --> 00:34:56,610 I get it yeah for sure well it's a good 835 00:35:01,160 --> 00:34:58,050 point to men you look at like any 836 00:35:04,340 --> 00:35:01,170 entrepreneurs who have helped fund UFO 837 00:35:06,170 --> 00:35:04,350 stuff and they're pretty ghostly if you 838 00:35:08,660 --> 00:35:06,180 think about it their names aren't out 839 00:35:10,430 --> 00:35:08,670 there until they're either leaked or you 840 00:35:11,870 --> 00:35:10,440 know eventually they come forward many 841 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:11,880 many years later and say oh yeah I 842 00:35:17,210 --> 00:35:14,370 funded that you know that skinwalker 843 00:35:18,410 --> 00:35:17,220 thing back well exactly right like I was 844 00:35:20,750 --> 00:35:18,420 just thinking about like you know 845 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:20,760 adamantium limited or whatever their 846 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:22,890 adamantium LLC that owns skinwalker 847 00:35:28,550 --> 00:35:26,010 ranch right a shadowy owner who nobody 848 00:35:30,650 --> 00:35:28,560 knows who it is who owns skinwalker 849 00:35:33,140 --> 00:35:30,660 ranch right well you know if you watch 850 00:35:35,890 --> 00:35:33,150 Jeremy corbels film the guy openly says 851 00:35:39,700 --> 00:35:35,900 listen I have a lot of businesses that 852 00:35:42,020 --> 00:35:39,710 would suffer if people knew right 853 00:35:43,940 --> 00:35:42,030 because again the people who bankroll 854 00:35:46,670 --> 00:35:43,950 him the people who buy shares the people 855 00:35:47,870 --> 00:35:46,680 who who invest in him investors are 856 00:35:50,620 --> 00:35:47,880 generally not risk takers right 857 00:35:52,850 --> 00:35:50,630 investors are very careful with money 858 00:35:54,650 --> 00:35:52,860 because they've grown up to be careful 859 00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:54,660 with money there's very few exceptions 860 00:36:00,050 --> 00:35:57,330 right of business people who take bold 861 00:36:02,330 --> 00:36:00,060 risks oftentimes they end up being 862 00:36:03,980 --> 00:36:02,340 billionaires but you know maybe they got 863 00:36:06,590 --> 00:36:03,990 lucky I don't know okay so let's put the 864 00:36:09,310 --> 00:36:06,600 microscope back on sort of the UFO 865 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:09,320 I guess research and experience their 866 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:12,930 communities we have these issues that 867 00:36:18,740 --> 00:36:15,930 arise in any community or any you know 868 00:36:20,150 --> 00:36:18,750 you know faction or what-have-you and 869 00:36:22,700 --> 00:36:20,160 when you pointed out in the book that 870 00:36:24,860 --> 00:36:22,710 that a lot of people either choose to 871 00:36:27,530 --> 00:36:24,870 ignore or flat out deny is gender 872 00:36:30,350 --> 00:36:27,540 politics when it comes to ufology and I 873 00:36:32,180 --> 00:36:30,360 found it really really great that you 874 00:36:34,220 --> 00:36:32,190 cover this in depth in the book so what 875 00:36:36,140 --> 00:36:34,230 made you want to tackle this and what 876 00:36:40,010 --> 00:36:36,150 you learn about gender within the UFO 877 00:36:42,350 --> 00:36:40,020 community this this I think of all of 878 00:36:48,260 --> 00:36:42,360 the chapters in the book this one is 879 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:48,270 gonna be the most like this one's me the 880 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:52,170 most political like I think people if ya 881 00:36:57,050 --> 00:36:55,290 listen people people within the UFO 882 00:36:59,090 --> 00:36:57,060 community hopefully will review my book 883 00:37:02,480 --> 00:36:59,100 and this is the chapter that they're 884 00:37:04,610 --> 00:37:02,490 gonna say that's like they hate because 885 00:37:07,340 --> 00:37:04,620 they're gonna say that like I'm wrong 886 00:37:09,590 --> 00:37:07,350 right because I think I think the 887 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:09,600 again who review typically the people 888 00:37:14,510 --> 00:37:12,330 who review UFO books are generally 889 00:37:18,410 --> 00:37:14,520 pretty conservative UFO researchers 890 00:37:20,450 --> 00:37:18,420 extremely so you know I'm gonna be I'm 891 00:37:22,070 --> 00:37:20,460 gonna be lamb basted a little bit for 892 00:37:23,510 --> 00:37:22,080 this one so hopefully other aspects of 893 00:37:24,950 --> 00:37:23,520 the book makes them happy enough to the 894 00:37:26,660 --> 00:37:24,960 point where they kind of overlook this 895 00:37:31,910 --> 00:37:26,670 and be like oh it's just been eyes being 896 00:37:34,790 --> 00:37:31,920 you know liberal I was I was sitting in 897 00:37:37,700 --> 00:37:34,800 a coffee shop and Mike Demonte who runs 898 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:37,710 the punk rock and UFOs blog posted an 899 00:37:43,100 --> 00:37:41,130 interview with Erika Luc's who hosts UFO 900 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:43,110 classified right the her radio show or 901 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:45,930 her I guess a radio show internet radio 902 00:37:52,790 --> 00:37:49,530 and and in the interview she talks about 903 00:37:54,950 --> 00:37:52,800 um the gender politics of UFOs and that 904 00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:54,960 it's the community itself is or sorry 905 00:37:58,490 --> 00:37:57,290 that the research community and 906 00:38:01,400 --> 00:37:58,500 predominantly 907 00:38:04,220 --> 00:38:01,410 the community of individuals who let's 908 00:38:07,250 --> 00:38:04,230 say make up sort of the expert level so 909 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:07,260 not the sort of individuals like myself 910 00:38:12,620 --> 00:38:09,210 or just sort of low-level 911 00:38:15,260 --> 00:38:12,630 UFO writers and researchers but the UFO 912 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:15,270 gurus let's say the vast majority of 913 00:38:20,750 --> 00:38:17,970 them are men the vast majority of the 914 00:38:23,390 --> 00:38:20,760 individuals who own UFO related media 915 00:38:25,820 --> 00:38:23,400 sites conferences all that stuff are 916 00:38:27,020 --> 00:38:25,830 predominantly male so she had this 917 00:38:29,810 --> 00:38:27,030 interview and she talked about sort of 918 00:38:32,270 --> 00:38:29,820 how she was bullied by you know various 919 00:38:35,300 --> 00:38:32,280 people in various organizations related 920 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:35,310 to UFOs and I read this article and and 921 00:38:38,660 --> 00:38:37,050 or this yeah this post that Mike wrote 922 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:38,670 and I was like oh interesting you know 923 00:38:42,650 --> 00:38:40,890 this is quite fascinating because again 924 00:38:44,330 --> 00:38:42,660 I'm a cultural studies guy and you know 925 00:38:45,980 --> 00:38:44,340 a good chunk of cultural studies is this 926 00:38:48,980 --> 00:38:45,990 gender and talking about gender and 927 00:38:50,270 --> 00:38:48,990 feminism and so I had contacted Luke's 928 00:38:51,290 --> 00:38:50,280 and I said you know hey Eric how's it 929 00:38:56,260 --> 00:38:51,300 going you know I have a couple questions 930 00:38:59,210 --> 00:38:56,270 and she basically gave me her story and 931 00:39:03,710 --> 00:38:59,220 ultimately we decided after kind of 932 00:39:06,830 --> 00:39:03,720 going through it that we were we were 933 00:39:08,030 --> 00:39:06,840 not gonna put it in the book and there 934 00:39:09,650 --> 00:39:08,040 was various reasons for this but she 935 00:39:11,810 --> 00:39:09,660 gave me the names of a whole bunch of 936 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:11,820 other women in the UFO community and the 937 00:39:15,980 --> 00:39:13,290 paranormal community who've contact her 938 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:15,990 contacted her rather as a result of this 939 00:39:21,140 --> 00:39:17,970 of this post and her her were sort of 940 00:39:23,870 --> 00:39:21,150 moved to to discuss gender within 941 00:39:26,180 --> 00:39:23,880 within this community so I spoke with 942 00:39:28,069 --> 00:39:26,190 them and and they were willing to to 943 00:39:29,720 --> 00:39:28,079 give me their stories and and a lot of 944 00:39:31,609 --> 00:39:29,730 them went into the book not all of them 945 00:39:33,589 --> 00:39:31,619 because it's just often there's just 946 00:39:36,170 --> 00:39:33,599 music you know as a writer you get you 947 00:39:38,269 --> 00:39:36,180 know 300 people talking to you but you 948 00:39:41,049 --> 00:39:38,279 have a room for you know 6,000 words 949 00:39:44,599 --> 00:39:41,059 so yeah you have to really pare it down 950 00:39:48,019 --> 00:39:44,609 to to what you know one fits with the 951 00:39:50,059 --> 00:39:48,029 book but also just kind of you know what 952 00:39:52,549 --> 00:39:50,069 I don't know how to how to explain it 953 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:52,559 what kind of jives well with the overall 954 00:39:57,380 --> 00:39:55,410 you're trying to message you're trying 955 00:40:00,589 --> 00:39:57,390 exactly yeah and I mean I could have 956 00:40:03,739 --> 00:40:00,599 like I said you used anyone but these 957 00:40:06,230 --> 00:40:03,749 these sort of the three ladies in the 958 00:40:08,450 --> 00:40:06,240 book three one women in the book are 959 00:40:10,670 --> 00:40:08,460 sued a manor Sinclair who wrote a 960 00:40:11,980 --> 00:40:10,680 chapter for Robby grams for training the 961 00:40:14,509 --> 00:40:11,990 debate UFOs were framing the debate 962 00:40:16,849 --> 00:40:14,519 allison Jorn lynn who's a paranormal 963 00:40:23,450 --> 00:40:16,859 investigator out of rome at Milwaukee 964 00:40:25,970 --> 00:40:23,460 and Cheryl Kosta who wrote that super 965 00:40:28,249 --> 00:40:25,980 huge book 966 00:40:32,870 --> 00:40:28,259 what like the UFO desk met reference 967 00:40:34,190 --> 00:40:32,880 manual or whatever yeah it's a book if 968 00:40:37,519 --> 00:40:34,200 you threw it at someone it would yeah 969 00:40:40,190 --> 00:40:37,529 and take their head off and and it was a 970 00:40:42,319 --> 00:40:40,200 very interesting process to to interview 971 00:40:45,499 --> 00:40:42,329 these women and and obviously the irony 972 00:40:47,989 --> 00:40:45,509 is that I'm a man right talking about 973 00:40:49,519 --> 00:40:47,999 women's issues in ufology or gender 974 00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:49,529 she's new college like I totally get the 975 00:40:54,380 --> 00:40:52,650 irony there but I I approached the 976 00:40:57,140 --> 00:40:54,390 chapter more with from their perspective 977 00:41:00,319 --> 00:40:57,150 so I it was their stories that really 978 00:41:05,210 --> 00:41:00,329 are the chapter I just kind of filled in 979 00:41:08,529 --> 00:41:05,220 the punctuation but I think you know the 980 00:41:11,329 --> 00:41:08,539 UFO community is like any other 981 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:11,339 community that's sort of predominantly 982 00:41:19,849 --> 00:41:16,410 male dominated males like UFO 983 00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:19,859 researchers who stand up on a stage and 984 00:41:26,059 --> 00:41:23,130 talk about UFOs are predominantly male 985 00:41:28,009 --> 00:41:26,069 the ones who assert sort of this is my 986 00:41:29,900 --> 00:41:28,019 theory of UFOs or this is my evidence 987 00:41:32,089 --> 00:41:29,910 and this is my investigation whatever I 988 00:41:34,550 --> 00:41:32,099 think that's pretty much that is and and 989 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:34,560 and currently is a male game I would say 990 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:38,370 a high percentage of UFO researchers who 991 00:41:41,930 --> 00:41:40,290 are public in their research and and 992 00:41:45,100 --> 00:41:41,940 write books and appear on television 993 00:41:49,750 --> 00:41:45,110 shows and appear at conferences our mail 994 00:41:52,790 --> 00:41:49,760 I think you have more women involved in 995 00:41:54,470 --> 00:41:52,800 telling their own stories right you have 996 00:41:57,140 --> 00:41:54,480 a lot more women who who talk about 997 00:41:58,820 --> 00:41:57,150 contact and abduction you have a lot 998 00:42:01,730 --> 00:41:58,830 more women who talk about their personal 999 00:42:05,270 --> 00:42:01,740 experience with the paranormal and they 1000 00:42:08,690 --> 00:42:05,280 don't really do things like here's UFO 1001 00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:08,700 research you know this is my theory here 1002 00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:10,770 you go rather they kind of present it 1003 00:42:14,540 --> 00:42:13,050 more in the sense of these are the 1004 00:42:17,720 --> 00:42:14,550 experiences I have had I'm going to talk 1005 00:42:20,330 --> 00:42:17,730 about them right and and this was the I 1006 00:42:22,460 --> 00:42:20,340 I reference a lot from a book written by 1007 00:42:25,070 --> 00:42:22,470 Brenda denzler who was a religious 1008 00:42:29,270 --> 00:42:25,080 studies PhD sure to book Hudler of the 1009 00:42:32,390 --> 00:42:29,280 lure lure the edge and that book was 1010 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:32,400 written I think in 2001 or 2002 or 1011 00:42:38,930 --> 00:42:34,890 something but she went to a bunch of UFO 1012 00:42:41,630 --> 00:42:38,940 conferences and and did studies like she 1013 00:42:44,330 --> 00:42:41,640 ran statistical studies and it was 1014 00:42:48,230 --> 00:42:44,340 something to the effect of 80% of all 1015 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:48,240 UFO experts the other 20% were either 1016 00:42:56,240 --> 00:42:52,410 male and not light or women and then 1017 00:42:57,920 --> 00:42:56,250 it's something like 40% of all people 1018 00:43:01,490 --> 00:42:57,930 who spoke about being abducted 1019 00:43:06,410 --> 00:43:01,500 were women more women hmm or no sorry 1020 00:43:07,970 --> 00:43:06,420 60% of abductees that spoke publicly 1021 00:43:09,860 --> 00:43:07,980 about their about their abductions were 1022 00:43:11,300 --> 00:43:09,870 women and then the other 40% were male 1023 00:43:13,130 --> 00:43:11,310 and and you can read her book like I'm 1024 00:43:14,900 --> 00:43:13,140 probably butchering her stats but it was 1025 00:43:16,370 --> 00:43:14,910 quite astronomical like how many males 1026 00:43:17,660 --> 00:43:16,380 there were in relation to females now 1027 00:43:19,850 --> 00:43:17,670 obviously those numbers have changed 1028 00:43:21,650 --> 00:43:19,860 right the it's been a long time since 1029 00:43:24,590 --> 00:43:21,660 2001 right like you know a whole 1030 00:43:27,110 --> 00:43:24,600 generation is sort of gone by but I 1031 00:43:29,330 --> 00:43:27,120 think predominantly when you look at 1032 00:43:31,580 --> 00:43:29,340 posters for conferences and when you 1033 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:31,590 look at books and when you look at media 1034 00:43:36,370 --> 00:43:33,930 you know who's being featured on ancient 1035 00:43:38,990 --> 00:43:36,380 aliens and who's being featured on 1036 00:43:43,340 --> 00:43:39,000 various UFO themed shows it is 1037 00:43:44,720 --> 00:43:43,350 predominantly a male story and again I 1038 00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:44,730 don't want to spoil too much from the 1039 00:43:48,349 --> 00:43:46,170 books I obviously want people to buy it 1040 00:43:50,180 --> 00:43:48,359 or that 1041 00:43:54,229 --> 00:43:50,190 you know there's there's one particular 1042 00:43:57,170 --> 00:43:54,239 moment where Susan Demeter Saint Claire 1043 00:43:59,120 --> 00:43:57,180 who wrote the chapter the only female in 1044 00:44:00,950 --> 00:43:59,130 the entire UFOs are framing the debate 1045 00:44:02,569 --> 00:44:00,960 book actually which is interesting to 1046 00:44:05,839 --> 00:44:02,579 note there's only one female writer in 1047 00:44:09,950 --> 00:44:05,849 that whole book she expresses it pretty 1048 00:44:12,799 --> 00:44:09,960 plainly when when someone else who who 1049 00:44:15,620 --> 00:44:12,809 was involved in that project one of the 1050 00:44:20,029 --> 00:44:15,630 other writers of an essay for that book 1051 00:44:22,329 --> 00:44:20,039 project told her sort of that her 1052 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:22,339 chapter was excellent and that she was 1053 00:44:27,380 --> 00:44:24,690 what was the expression that that she 1054 00:44:31,599 --> 00:44:27,390 did oh god I'm gonna she worded it so 1055 00:44:34,339 --> 00:44:31,609 beautifully in my book that she was a 1056 00:44:35,359 --> 00:44:34,349 like a great example of her gender or 1057 00:44:39,589 --> 00:44:35,369 something to that effect 1058 00:44:41,599 --> 00:44:39,599 right like totally played down this this 1059 00:44:43,130 --> 00:44:41,609 this notion of equality and kind of said 1060 00:44:44,509 --> 00:44:43,140 oh you know you're a woman 1061 00:44:47,089 --> 00:44:44,519 congratulations you wrote a book chapter 1062 00:44:49,069 --> 00:44:47,099 you know like it was so offensive and 1063 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:49,079 the person I'm sure like the the 1064 00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:51,690 gentleman who stated this probably 1065 00:44:57,229 --> 00:44:54,450 didn't mean anything harmful but the 1066 00:44:59,569 --> 00:44:57,239 very act of how they said it was harmful 1067 00:45:01,279 --> 00:44:59,579 right it just shows the stereotypes that 1068 00:45:02,660 --> 00:45:01,289 exist and it shows the discrimination 1069 00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:02,670 that exists within the UFO community 1070 00:45:07,039 --> 00:45:05,249 that she was sort of this shining 1071 00:45:09,019 --> 00:45:07,049 example of her gender within the 1072 00:45:10,309 --> 00:45:09,029 paranormal research community and and 1073 00:45:11,989 --> 00:45:10,319 like there's tons of stories like that 1074 00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:11,999 my book is chock full of stories from 1075 00:45:16,390 --> 00:45:13,890 from various women who have come forward 1076 00:45:18,769 --> 00:45:16,400 and sort of said yeah you know I was 1077 00:45:21,229 --> 00:45:18,779 talking with this guy he wanted me to do 1078 00:45:23,749 --> 00:45:21,239 a an interview for a TV show for his 1079 00:45:27,079 --> 00:45:23,759 paranormal group and you know then he 1080 00:45:28,910 --> 00:45:27,089 sent me a dick pic you know and you know 1081 00:45:31,670 --> 00:45:28,920 like why does this you know like what 1082 00:45:34,130 --> 00:45:31,680 does it happen right I I left because 1083 00:45:36,380 --> 00:45:34,140 I'm uncomfortable dude it's just it's so 1084 00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:36,390 true I mean what the what the female 1085 00:45:41,329 --> 00:45:39,210 researchers deal with in this community 1086 00:45:44,809 --> 00:45:41,339 and probably every community 1087 00:45:46,579 --> 00:45:44,819 aside from ufology quote-unquote is you 1088 00:45:48,319 --> 00:45:46,589 know they're scrutinized a thousand 1089 00:45:51,370 --> 00:45:48,329 times more than any male up on that 1090 00:45:54,079 --> 00:45:51,380 stage so no wonder they're they're 1091 00:45:56,059 --> 00:45:54,089 hesitant to get up there and present 1092 00:45:59,239 --> 00:45:56,069 their research a lot of them are doing 1093 00:46:01,049 --> 00:45:59,249 it in the shadows you know or you know 1094 00:46:04,289 --> 00:46:01,059 through the internet so that 1095 00:46:06,779 --> 00:46:04,299 aren't out in public and don't get this 1096 00:46:09,359 --> 00:46:06,789 get the stuff that you mentioned you 1097 00:46:13,859 --> 00:46:09,369 know oh you did so good for a woman 1098 00:46:15,929 --> 00:46:13,869 right or a good job it's I like you said 1099 00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:15,939 you and I we can talk about gender 1100 00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:18,130 politics all we want but it's good to 1101 00:46:22,589 --> 00:46:21,130 see that you you gave the voices to the 1102 00:46:24,419 --> 00:46:22,599 women in the book to express it 1103 00:46:26,130 --> 00:46:24,429 themselves I think that's more important 1104 00:46:28,769 --> 00:46:26,140 than anything the two of them could ever 1105 00:46:30,419 --> 00:46:28,779 say yeah I agree I I didn't want to take 1106 00:46:32,789 --> 00:46:30,429 control too much you know this was a 1107 00:46:34,709 --> 00:46:32,799 chapter that I personally I still feel 1108 00:46:38,669 --> 00:46:34,719 uncomfortable about only because I am a 1109 00:46:41,519 --> 00:46:38,679 man who's writing about women the the 1110 00:46:44,729 --> 00:46:41,529 the problem I think is that there hasn't 1111 00:46:47,399 --> 00:46:44,739 really been a lot of work published by 1112 00:46:49,140 --> 00:46:47,409 women in the paranormal community for 1113 00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:49,150 the paranal compare that for the 1114 00:46:53,579 --> 00:46:51,729 paranormal community in regards to the 1115 00:46:55,169 --> 00:46:53,589 gender politics within the paranormal 1116 00:46:57,359 --> 00:46:55,179 community right like there this really 1117 00:46:58,769 --> 00:46:57,369 hasn't been done and I think it needs to 1118 00:47:00,929 --> 00:46:58,779 be I'm a clearly state that in my book I 1119 00:47:05,039 --> 00:47:00,939 sort of say like this is not this is not 1120 00:47:07,380 --> 00:47:05,049 my fight I'll I'll try and and give 1121 00:47:10,049 --> 00:47:07,390 voice because I have I have a soapbox 1122 00:47:11,939 --> 00:47:10,059 right so I will let other people use my 1123 00:47:13,919 --> 00:47:11,949 soapbox kind of thing like please like 1124 00:47:18,509 --> 00:47:13,929 this book needs to be written sort of 1125 00:47:20,729 --> 00:47:18,519 you know female paranormal researchers 1126 00:47:24,149 --> 00:47:20,739 who have to deal with with issues of 1127 00:47:25,739 --> 00:47:24,159 gender in their work I think is a book 1128 00:47:26,969 --> 00:47:25,749 that needs to be written but it's not 1129 00:47:28,759 --> 00:47:26,979 going to be written by me because I'm 1130 00:47:31,229 --> 00:47:28,769 not the person to do it 1131 00:47:33,809 --> 00:47:31,239 Alison Jorn Lande who is featured 1132 00:47:36,029 --> 00:47:33,819 heavily in the chapter you know kind of 1133 00:47:38,549 --> 00:47:36,039 put it best you know men when they get 1134 00:47:40,409 --> 00:47:38,559 up on stage or when they show up on TV 1135 00:47:42,179 --> 00:47:40,419 or when they do YouTube videos or 1136 00:47:44,219 --> 00:47:42,189 whatever don't necessarily have to worry 1137 00:47:46,620 --> 00:47:44,229 about the clothes they wear because 1138 00:47:48,509 --> 00:47:46,630 other men aren't gonna look at them and 1139 00:47:50,489 --> 00:47:48,519 judge them by their outfits or judge 1140 00:47:53,519 --> 00:47:50,499 them by their hair or whatever you know 1141 00:47:55,380 --> 00:47:53,529 I read a funny article where where I 1142 00:47:56,459 --> 00:47:55,390 think was written by I can't actually 1143 00:47:58,259 --> 00:47:56,469 I'm not gonna say names because I don't 1144 00:48:00,929 --> 00:47:58,269 want to yeah I don't know who wrote it 1145 00:48:03,630 --> 00:48:00,939 but they were talking about doctor David 1146 00:48:05,849 --> 00:48:03,640 Jacobs who was the he's the abduction 1147 00:48:08,609 --> 00:48:05,859 research guy who talks about how there's 1148 00:48:11,249 --> 00:48:08,619 an alien-human hybrid program and it's 1149 00:48:13,169 --> 00:48:11,259 all about invading the planet right he 1150 00:48:14,940 --> 00:48:13,179 wrote a bunch of books anyway you know 1151 00:48:16,170 --> 00:48:14,950 he got up on stage and 1152 00:48:18,510 --> 00:48:16,180 you know he was addressed sort of like a 1153 00:48:20,460 --> 00:48:18,520 old university professor quite sort of 1154 00:48:22,950 --> 00:48:20,470 frazzled looking and you know his hair 1155 00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:22,960 was all over placed like he's from back 1156 00:48:27,450 --> 00:48:26,170 to the future you know and and that's 1157 00:48:30,450 --> 00:48:27,460 kind of what he looks like and and 1158 00:48:32,250 --> 00:48:30,460 people you know they talked about not 1159 00:48:33,930 --> 00:48:32,260 really his outfit or what he looked like 1160 00:48:35,940 --> 00:48:33,940 it was sort of mentioned he looked like 1161 00:48:39,240 --> 00:48:35,950 a university professor period these are 1162 00:48:40,859 --> 00:48:39,250 his ideas period but if a woman stood up 1163 00:48:42,569 --> 00:48:40,869 on stage dressed like that or like you 1164 00:48:45,569 --> 00:48:42,579 know like looking like he did right it 1165 00:48:47,309 --> 00:48:45,579 would be wow she looks totally like not 1166 00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:47,319 put together like there would be severe 1167 00:48:51,780 --> 00:48:50,410 judgment upon the appearance right and I 1168 00:48:53,039 --> 00:48:51,790 think we do this in all walks of life 1169 00:48:55,980 --> 00:48:53,049 this isn't something that's just 1170 00:48:58,020 --> 00:48:55,990 localized vfo community but you often 1171 00:48:59,910 --> 00:48:58,030 see in the media when you know 1172 00:49:02,280 --> 00:48:59,920 especially during the last election when 1173 00:49:04,079 --> 00:49:02,290 Hillary Clinton went on stage and she 1174 00:49:06,270 --> 00:49:04,089 looked a little tired people pointed it 1175 00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:06,280 out right people said all Hillary looks 1176 00:49:10,260 --> 00:49:07,930 tired and blah blah blah meanwhile 1177 00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:10,270 Donald Trump stands up on stage and it's 1178 00:49:13,559 --> 00:49:12,010 nothing about how tired he looks or how 1179 00:49:15,780 --> 00:49:13,569 terrible his hair is you know those 1180 00:49:18,599 --> 00:49:15,790 become internet memes of the political 1181 00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:18,609 left but um it's not really news 1182 00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:20,770 coverage but you know if Hillary Clinton 1183 00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:23,410 is wearing the wrong color shoes for her 1184 00:49:28,020 --> 00:49:26,170 outfit it's pointed out and this is 1185 00:49:31,710 --> 00:49:28,030 listen like this is not this is this is 1186 00:49:34,349 --> 00:49:31,720 old hat feminism I'm spewing here this 1187 00:49:36,210 --> 00:49:34,359 is you know not a new new concept but I 1188 00:49:38,220 --> 00:49:36,220 don't think anyone the UFO community has 1189 00:49:40,380 --> 00:49:38,230 really written about it so I don't know 1190 00:49:42,750 --> 00:49:40,390 I guess it's like that yeah I guess I 1191 00:49:45,210 --> 00:49:42,760 decided to I don't know I I can't 1192 00:49:47,579 --> 00:49:45,220 justify it I just did you know man it's 1193 00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:47,589 again it's a big part of the subculture 1194 00:49:51,780 --> 00:49:50,170 and it needs to be pointed out and yeah 1195 00:49:54,359 --> 00:49:51,790 and I think that's true it is a book of 1196 00:49:56,220 --> 00:49:54,369 a subculture and I mean well since you 1197 00:49:56,880 --> 00:49:56,230 talked about Jacobs and the abduction 1198 00:49:58,740 --> 00:49:56,890 phenomenon 1199 00:50:00,390 --> 00:49:58,750 I would love to tackle that with you 1200 00:50:03,299 --> 00:50:00,400 something which I covered in detail in 1201 00:50:05,789 --> 00:50:03,309 my own research and book but a part of 1202 00:50:08,220 --> 00:50:05,799 me wishes I remained as critical as you 1203 00:50:10,500 --> 00:50:08,230 did of the abduction phenomenon as a 1204 00:50:12,660 --> 00:50:10,510 whole and that really came across with 1205 00:50:14,250 --> 00:50:12,670 this story of Roy in your book would you 1206 00:50:16,740 --> 00:50:14,260 mind maybe running us through a little 1207 00:50:19,770 --> 00:50:16,750 bit of this I know it's a big one but it 1208 00:50:22,289 --> 00:50:19,780 this story really hit me and brought me 1209 00:50:24,450 --> 00:50:22,299 back into you know what I felt when I 1210 00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:24,460 was covering the abduction phenomenon in 1211 00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:26,530 my own work so yeah can you tell us a 1212 00:50:28,470 --> 00:50:27,490 little about Roy 1213 00:50:30,540 --> 00:50:28,480 sure 1214 00:50:32,580 --> 00:50:30,550 yeah before I do I mean ultimately you 1215 00:50:34,230 --> 00:50:32,590 know I I don't know if people are 1216 00:50:36,090 --> 00:50:34,240 abducted by aliens or not I don't know 1217 00:50:38,430 --> 00:50:36,100 all I have is what people tell me right 1218 00:50:39,900 --> 00:50:38,440 so you know I've heard lots of people 1219 00:50:42,210 --> 00:50:39,910 tell me their stories on how they were 1220 00:50:44,970 --> 00:50:42,220 abducted by aliens and some of them you 1221 00:50:47,070 --> 00:50:44,980 know are relatively stable rational 1222 00:50:50,010 --> 00:50:47,080 people they're you know what we would 1223 00:50:51,540 --> 00:50:50,020 say are like they're just people like 1224 00:50:54,540 --> 00:50:51,550 you and I and they have this amazing 1225 00:50:56,609 --> 00:50:54,550 experience frightening experience so so 1226 00:50:58,620 --> 00:50:56,619 do people get abducted by aliens you 1227 00:51:00,359 --> 00:50:58,630 know I'm gonna sit on the I don't know 1228 00:51:01,940 --> 00:51:00,369 fence because I don't know I'm not gonna 1229 00:51:05,670 --> 00:51:01,950 say they do I'm not gonna suddenly don't 1230 00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:05,680 so I'll leave it at that in regards to 1231 00:51:13,980 --> 00:51:08,530 Roy however really came to me well 1232 00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:13,990 before I was into UFOs and he was he was 1233 00:51:18,300 --> 00:51:15,490 introduced to me through sort of another 1234 00:51:20,240 --> 00:51:18,310 UFO researcher I knew a friend of a 1235 00:51:23,370 --> 00:51:20,250 friend of a friend kind of thing and 1236 00:51:25,650 --> 00:51:23,380 sort of told me his story and and 1237 00:51:28,530 --> 00:51:25,660 initially I was unsure what to think and 1238 00:51:31,230 --> 00:51:28,540 as I sort of spoke to really more you 1239 00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:31,240 know he had a lot of issues in his life 1240 00:51:36,660 --> 00:51:35,170 that to me indicated that maybe Roy was 1241 00:51:39,599 --> 00:51:36,670 not having an abduction experience but 1242 00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:39,609 maybe the abduction experience was I 1243 00:51:46,140 --> 00:51:42,970 want to say delusion but a sort of a way 1244 00:51:48,359 --> 00:51:46,150 to fill in some of the hurt that he felt 1245 00:51:49,380 --> 00:51:48,369 as a result of events that happened in 1246 00:51:51,240 --> 00:51:49,390 his life 1247 00:51:53,970 --> 00:51:51,250 Roy is obviously not his real name only 1248 00:51:56,099 --> 00:51:53,980 because I lost touch with Roy years ago 1249 00:51:59,670 --> 00:51:56,109 and I haven't been able to get ahold of 1250 00:52:02,670 --> 00:51:59,680 him his email no longer is active his 1251 00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:02,680 phone number is disconnected so you know 1252 00:52:06,770 --> 00:52:05,530 ultimately I I wasn't able to get his 1253 00:52:10,650 --> 00:52:06,780 permission to use his name in the book 1254 00:52:17,190 --> 00:52:10,660 so I just changed to Roy which which fit 1255 00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:17,200 nicely and Roy was having sort of 1256 00:52:21,990 --> 00:52:19,690 regular abduction experiences where at 1257 00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:22,000 night in bed sort of these entities 1258 00:52:27,900 --> 00:52:25,650 would would render him unconscious and 1259 00:52:30,150 --> 00:52:27,910 he would sort of feel an electric shock 1260 00:52:31,470 --> 00:52:30,160 and then you know that's it and then he 1261 00:52:33,720 --> 00:52:31,480 would wake up the next morning and you 1262 00:52:35,130 --> 00:52:33,730 know he would have maybe sort of you 1263 00:52:37,980 --> 00:52:35,140 know how one plane had an injury on his 1264 00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:37,990 head but but that was it and you know my 1265 00:52:41,490 --> 00:52:39,490 my pain is he just hit his head on his 1266 00:52:42,330 --> 00:52:41,500 headboard during a dream or something 1267 00:52:44,970 --> 00:52:42,340 like that he was bumped 1268 00:52:47,730 --> 00:52:44,980 right so there was no evidence really to 1269 00:52:49,050 --> 00:52:47,740 present that that he had you know a 1270 00:52:50,700 --> 00:52:49,060 legitimate abduction experience he was 1271 00:52:52,710 --> 00:52:50,710 also undergoing sort of severe stress in 1272 00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:52,720 his life his wife and son recently left 1273 00:52:57,540 --> 00:52:54,970 him he recently sort of suffered an 1274 00:52:59,310 --> 00:52:57,550 accident and injured himself so he was 1275 00:53:02,250 --> 00:52:59,320 not he wasn't able to work anymore and 1276 00:53:03,900 --> 00:53:02,260 that I think his life was spiraling sort 1277 00:53:07,020 --> 00:53:03,910 of out of control I mean he had spent 1278 00:53:10,470 --> 00:53:07,030 his entire life raising you know a son 1279 00:53:13,110 --> 00:53:10,480 and having being married and building a 1280 00:53:15,870 --> 00:53:13,120 home for himself and and having a 1281 00:53:18,540 --> 00:53:15,880 relatively stable job and that all kind 1282 00:53:21,180 --> 00:53:18,550 of fell away very quickly and and it 1283 00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:21,190 never really was expressed to me why his 1284 00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:23,410 wife or son left it was never really 1285 00:53:28,710 --> 00:53:25,090 expressed to me sort of sort of what 1286 00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:28,720 occurred personally to Roy but he came 1287 00:53:33,270 --> 00:53:30,490 to me looking for answers and looking 1288 00:53:35,940 --> 00:53:33,280 for help to make it stop and make it go 1289 00:53:36,270 --> 00:53:35,950 away and it sort of you know broke my 1290 00:53:38,700 --> 00:53:36,280 heart 1291 00:53:41,070 --> 00:53:38,710 right and Roy is one of those cases that 1292 00:53:45,090 --> 00:53:41,080 I wish it you know I wish I knew now 1293 00:53:47,370 --> 00:53:45,100 what I didn't know then you know I was a 1294 00:53:49,290 --> 00:53:47,380 lot younger I was not experienced I had 1295 00:53:50,940 --> 00:53:49,300 not been like a field investigator for a 1296 00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:50,950 MUFON and I hadn't talked to dozens and 1297 00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:52,690 dozens and dozens and dozens of UFO 1298 00:53:55,890 --> 00:53:54,850 witnesses and individuals and you know I 1299 00:53:57,540 --> 00:53:55,900 think I would have approached the whole 1300 00:54:01,170 --> 00:53:57,550 situation differently but really was 1301 00:54:03,810 --> 00:54:01,180 looking for answers from a ufologist and 1302 00:54:06,570 --> 00:54:03,820 I have to be honest ufologists should 1303 00:54:08,670 --> 00:54:06,580 not be doling out any answers whatsoever 1304 00:54:12,270 --> 00:54:08,680 because we're not qualified to because 1305 00:54:15,570 --> 00:54:12,280 there's no qualifications and and I 1306 00:54:17,940 --> 00:54:15,580 think Roy had um some sort of mental 1307 00:54:21,470 --> 00:54:17,950 health breakdown and I think the 1308 00:54:23,900 --> 00:54:21,480 abductions for him filled in a gap of 1309 00:54:27,900 --> 00:54:23,910 something rather than nothing 1310 00:54:30,930 --> 00:54:27,910 he had lost everything and I think the 1311 00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:30,940 aliens for him were something that he 1312 00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:32,290 could latch on to something that he 1313 00:54:37,710 --> 00:54:35,410 could anchor his life to and so that man 1314 00:54:38,100 --> 00:54:37,720 I'm like almost into yeah I'm not 1315 00:54:42,150 --> 00:54:38,110 kidding 1316 00:54:46,140 --> 00:54:42,160 it is heartbreaking because he he went 1317 00:54:48,090 --> 00:54:46,150 away and he found some hypnotherapist 1318 00:54:49,790 --> 00:54:48,100 who said they were gonna regress him and 1319 00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:49,800 we're gonna charge him a fortune for it 1320 00:54:56,100 --> 00:54:54,490 and this this hypnotherapist like I have 1321 00:54:58,410 --> 00:54:56,110 to be on it's like many hypnotherapist 1322 00:54:59,580 --> 00:54:58,420 who involved themselves in the UFO 1323 00:55:02,130 --> 00:54:59,590 community I'm not gonna say all 1324 00:55:03,450 --> 00:55:02,140 hypnotherapy but I think in I think 1325 00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:03,460 certain people who claim to be 1326 00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:05,050 hypnotherapists and and who work 1327 00:55:10,860 --> 00:55:06,850 specifically within the UFO community on 1328 00:55:14,370 --> 00:55:10,870 purpose know that they can pray upon an 1329 00:55:16,650 --> 00:55:14,380 easy target and I think Roy was an easy 1330 00:55:19,740 --> 00:55:16,660 target because he wanted it to stop 1331 00:55:22,290 --> 00:55:19,750 but I'm not sure if he really did and 1332 00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:22,300 and I think when you deal with people 1333 00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:26,770 who engage in psychological or or 1334 00:55:32,340 --> 00:55:30,610 psychiatric sort of care one if they're 1335 00:55:34,260 --> 00:55:32,350 not really psychiatrists or 1336 00:55:37,530 --> 00:55:34,270 psychologists proper like if they don't 1337 00:55:41,070 --> 00:55:37,540 actually have actual credentials from an 1338 00:55:44,780 --> 00:55:41,080 actual University I I think that that 1339 00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:44,790 they end up doing work within our 1340 00:55:49,310 --> 00:55:47,770 community knowing that there's a lot of 1341 00:55:52,710 --> 00:55:49,320 individuals within our community who 1342 00:55:55,650 --> 00:55:52,720 have psychological concerns that that 1343 00:55:57,600 --> 00:55:55,660 need real professional help and they act 1344 00:56:00,900 --> 00:55:57,610 as sort of parasites within our 1345 00:56:03,300 --> 00:56:00,910 community to to to extract people's 1346 00:56:06,420 --> 00:56:03,310 hard-earned money and they play upon 1347 00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:06,430 mental health issues so I think I think 1348 00:56:11,100 --> 00:56:09,370 had I known all of this back then I 1349 00:56:12,690 --> 00:56:11,110 would have sort of handled it all 1350 00:56:16,470 --> 00:56:12,700 differently and I don't know where Roy 1351 00:56:19,980 --> 00:56:16,480 is now I don't have any clue what he's 1352 00:56:22,890 --> 00:56:19,990 up to but yeah it's it's one of those 1353 00:56:25,140 --> 00:56:22,900 cases where you have an abduction victim 1354 00:56:28,140 --> 00:56:25,150 who in my opinion and again it's my 1355 00:56:30,690 --> 00:56:28,150 opinion I'm not a psychologist I'm not a 1356 00:56:32,730 --> 00:56:30,700 psychiatrist so I could be totally wrong 1357 00:56:37,050 --> 00:56:32,740 here maybe all of his experiences were 1358 00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:37,060 100% alien abductions I don't know but 1359 00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:40,330 in my opinion my gut feeling is that 1360 00:56:46,110 --> 00:56:43,690 there was there was an issue a mental 1361 00:56:47,850 --> 00:56:46,120 health issue yeah and it breaks my heart 1362 00:56:54,150 --> 00:56:47,860 you know I mean like it's still one of 1363 00:56:56,070 --> 00:56:54,160 those Movado stin my head and he is he's 1364 00:56:59,640 --> 00:56:56,080 my red flag right like if I ever meet 1365 00:57:01,530 --> 00:56:59,650 people like him I think of him and I'm 1366 00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:01,540 like this is this is not the route we 1367 00:57:05,910 --> 00:57:03,490 need to go and you need to do this and 1368 00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:05,920 I'm not gonna really work with you 1369 00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:09,850 because I don't know if I'm your best 1370 00:57:13,620 --> 00:57:12,130 sir you know so it's it's it's 1371 00:57:15,390 --> 00:57:13,630 interesting because that being said you 1372 00:57:16,890 --> 00:57:15,400 know with all that being said I have 1373 00:57:19,620 --> 00:57:16,900 spoken to a lot of individuals who have 1374 00:57:23,430 --> 00:57:19,630 claimed contact and abduction who are 1375 00:57:25,350 --> 00:57:23,440 not like Roy who are quite stable who 1376 00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:25,360 have stable support systems at home 1377 00:57:32,370 --> 00:57:29,770 loving caring families who are in are 1378 00:57:36,690 --> 00:57:32,380 not sort of falling away but remain kind 1379 00:57:38,910 --> 00:57:36,700 of foundations for them so you know it's 1380 00:57:40,380 --> 00:57:38,920 tough right you know does that you know 1381 00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:40,390 so what do I do with that you know what 1382 00:57:45,630 --> 00:57:43,330 do I do with all the individuals in in 1383 00:57:50,790 --> 00:57:45,640 the in the UFO research I've done who 1384 00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:50,800 are very stable and who have stable jobs 1385 00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:53,050 have stable families have you know 1386 00:57:58,020 --> 00:57:55,530 loving husbands and wives and children 1387 00:57:59,670 --> 00:57:58,030 and and extended families you know like 1388 00:58:02,250 --> 00:57:59,680 they have dinner with the family every 1389 00:58:06,030 --> 00:58:02,260 Sunday and everyone knows about what 1390 00:58:07,350 --> 00:58:06,040 happened to Uncle Jim or Aunt Jenny and 1391 00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:07,360 everyone's fine with it and they love 1392 00:58:10,710 --> 00:58:09,010 them anyway and and it's not a 1393 00:58:12,330 --> 00:58:10,720 psychological issue and it's not a 1394 00:58:14,690 --> 00:58:12,340 mental health issue it's like something 1395 00:58:17,220 --> 00:58:14,700 that they believed that they experienced 1396 00:58:19,230 --> 00:58:17,230 you know what am I to say that that's 1397 00:58:22,140 --> 00:58:19,240 not happening I honestly don't know I 1398 00:58:25,230 --> 00:58:22,150 can be critical and I can you know I can 1399 00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:25,240 remain objective or try to remain 1400 00:58:29,310 --> 00:58:27,610 objective but that's the problem with 1401 00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:29,320 UFO phenomenon right and the paranormal 1402 00:58:35,900 --> 00:58:31,810 in general you don't know what's what 1403 00:58:38,370 --> 00:58:35,910 and anyone who says they know is a liar 1404 00:58:40,620 --> 00:58:38,380 or trying to sell you something 1405 00:58:43,620 --> 00:58:40,630 right exactly yeah what is your tagline 1406 00:58:46,500 --> 00:58:43,630 for your cafe obscura again that always 1407 00:58:47,730 --> 00:58:46,510 comes to mind oh it's the keep searching 1408 00:58:50,310 --> 00:58:47,740 for answers and never trust those who 1409 00:58:52,980 --> 00:58:50,320 say they have them perfect love that 1410 00:58:56,550 --> 00:58:52,990 that's a good way to wrap the bow on the 1411 00:58:58,830 --> 00:58:56,560 abduction phenomenon dude i I I struggle 1412 00:59:01,320 --> 00:58:58,840 every day I covered so many in my past 1413 00:59:03,570 --> 00:59:01,330 research and book and I've come no 1414 00:59:06,540 --> 00:59:03,580 closer to an answer but I have run into 1415 00:59:09,420 --> 00:59:06,550 the same dilemma as you is you know you 1416 00:59:13,230 --> 00:59:09,430 have someone like Roy and I've met many 1417 00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:13,240 a Roy who I in my younger days and naive 1418 00:59:18,300 --> 00:59:15,730 days of research wish I had been more 1419 00:59:20,310 --> 00:59:18,310 careful with how I approach those things 1420 00:59:22,020 --> 00:59:20,320 you know you start second-guessing 1421 00:59:23,490 --> 00:59:22,030 everything you said to them like did I 1422 00:59:26,220 --> 00:59:23,500 enable this 1423 00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:26,230 delusion or fantasy or gap in their life 1424 00:59:30,900 --> 00:59:28,810 or you know did I hope that in some way 1425 00:59:34,170 --> 00:59:30,910 and sometimes just getting it out there 1426 00:59:36,660 --> 00:59:34,180 is enough for the people and then it's 1427 00:59:38,850 --> 00:59:36,670 not your job or responsibility to find 1428 00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:38,860 answers for them just forgotten to get 1429 00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:41,170 it out can be enough but I mean you know 1430 00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:42,490 they're I don't have to tell you that 1431 00:59:48,030 --> 00:59:45,010 but you but then like you said you meet 1432 00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:48,040 those people those down-to-earth husband 1433 00:59:53,250 --> 00:59:51,010 or wife or teacher or professor or law 1434 00:59:55,680 --> 00:59:53,260 enforcement officer who say the same 1435 00:59:58,350 --> 00:59:55,690 damn thing that they were abducted by 1436 01:00:01,020 --> 00:59:58,360 aliens and you're just like what the 1437 01:00:04,410 --> 01:00:01,030 hell like I've you've got such a wide 1438 01:00:07,410 --> 01:00:04,420 swath such a big spectrum of individuals 1439 01:00:08,220 --> 01:00:07,420 claiming these things so yeah I would 1440 01:00:10,290 --> 01:00:08,230 say know where to begin 1441 01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:10,300 yeah it's really tough I think I think 1442 01:00:16,530 --> 01:00:14,290 my initial like whenever I I engage with 1443 01:00:19,140 --> 01:00:16,540 people who claim contact or abduction or 1444 01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:19,150 any UFO witness for that matter or any 1445 01:00:23,490 --> 01:00:21,610 witness of the paranormal I think when 1446 01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:23,500 they when they come to me and they say 1447 01:00:28,860 --> 01:00:26,650 you know this is what I saw and they 1448 01:00:31,290 --> 01:00:28,870 described it and then the next words out 1449 01:00:33,690 --> 01:00:31,300 of their mouths are I have no idea what 1450 01:00:35,850 --> 01:00:33,700 the hell's going on automatically that 1451 01:00:37,830 --> 01:00:35,860 for me raises like okay you've passed my 1452 01:00:40,830 --> 01:00:37,840 first test in a sense right like my 1453 01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:40,840 litmus test is you you probably should 1454 01:00:45,330 --> 01:00:42,610 sit there and say you have no clue what 1455 01:00:47,340 --> 01:00:45,340 switch is what's going on right when 1456 01:00:50,850 --> 01:00:47,350 when people come to me and say you know 1457 01:00:52,890 --> 01:00:50,860 I experienced this and I know 100% that 1458 01:00:54,810 --> 01:00:52,900 it's aliens from this planet or it's 1459 01:00:58,740 --> 01:00:54,820 interdimensional beings from this or 1460 01:01:02,250 --> 01:00:58,750 it's it's these beings from this species 1461 01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:02,260 from this non-human organization 1462 01:01:06,390 --> 01:01:03,970 it's the blue avians from the 1463 01:01:08,250 --> 01:01:06,400 intergalactic Federation or it's the 1464 01:01:10,650 --> 01:01:08,260 pleadians and like when people start 1465 01:01:12,810 --> 01:01:10,660 coming to me and saying that then 1466 01:01:14,910 --> 01:01:12,820 they've sort of failed the first test in 1467 01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:14,920 a sense right like they they are making 1468 01:01:18,630 --> 01:01:17,290 claims of knowledge that they may not 1469 01:01:20,130 --> 01:01:18,640 now maybe the aliens told them that 1470 01:01:21,510 --> 01:01:20,140 maybe the alien said listen I am a blue 1471 01:01:24,450 --> 01:01:21,520 avian from the intergalactic Federation 1472 01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:24,460 bla bla bla bla bla Claire you know man 1473 01:01:27,210 --> 01:01:25,570 you can might get a copyright 1474 01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:27,220 infringement if you keep saying blue 1475 01:01:30,750 --> 01:01:29,290 avian I can't sleep can I see if someone 1476 01:01:32,540 --> 01:01:30,760 can say from the secret space program 1477 01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:32,550 secret space program careful that's a 1478 01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:34,450 secret space program secret space 1479 01:01:37,020 --> 01:01:35,890 program you already costing me a fortune 1480 01:01:38,370 --> 01:01:37,030 Dean 1481 01:01:41,430 --> 01:01:38,380 listen you can just send your legal 1482 01:01:43,050 --> 01:01:41,440 bills to me fair enough you can't listen 1483 01:01:45,900 --> 01:01:43,060 he can't see you because you'd have to 1484 01:01:48,270 --> 01:01:45,910 prove that they exist so in a court of 1485 01:01:49,170 --> 01:01:48,280 law which he can't so you're all right 1486 01:01:54,570 --> 01:01:49,180 knowing about it there's an actually 1487 01:01:55,950 --> 01:01:54,580 good idea where were we yeah the litmus 1488 01:01:58,740 --> 01:01:55,960 test right like I mean I think generally 1489 01:02:00,660 --> 01:01:58,750 people who have had legitimate contact 1490 01:02:02,850 --> 01:02:00,670 with the phenomenon let's just say I'll 1491 01:02:04,710 --> 01:02:02,860 just call the phenomenon mmm they will 1492 01:02:07,530 --> 01:02:04,720 often approach the whole situation with 1493 01:02:09,810 --> 01:02:07,540 I have no clue what's going on um and 1494 01:02:11,790 --> 01:02:09,820 that's why in my book I went sort of 1495 01:02:13,290 --> 01:02:11,800 with Amy who was the UFO witness who I 1496 01:02:16,020 --> 01:02:13,300 talk about a lot in the first sort of 1497 01:02:19,350 --> 01:02:16,030 section of my book because she she 1498 01:02:21,630 --> 01:02:19,360 contacted me and it was like something's 1499 01:02:23,220 --> 01:02:21,640 happening I don't know what it is I just 1500 01:02:24,990 --> 01:02:23,230 need someone to talk to you and that was 1501 01:02:27,480 --> 01:02:25,000 it like it wasn't she wasn't looking for 1502 01:02:29,460 --> 01:02:27,490 answers she wasn't looking for is it 1503 01:02:31,200 --> 01:02:29,470 aliens at this like inch to this day 1504 01:02:33,270 --> 01:02:31,210 it's still like I don't know what's 1505 01:02:35,820 --> 01:02:33,280 happening and it's weird and I kind of 1506 01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:35,830 wanted to stop you know like if that 1507 01:02:40,350 --> 01:02:38,290 kind of odd you know like it's sort of 1508 01:02:42,450 --> 01:02:40,360 compelling to her but it's also horribly 1509 01:02:44,900 --> 01:02:42,460 frightening right it's like a moth to a 1510 01:02:48,090 --> 01:02:44,910 flame sometimes right like you know like 1511 01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:48,100 you you you you're interested because 1512 01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:50,410 they're there but then you're you're 1513 01:02:56,520 --> 01:02:52,650 like I wish they would kind of go away - 1514 01:02:59,250 --> 01:02:56,530 because it's disrupting my life but Amy 1515 01:03:00,600 --> 01:02:59,260 in my book has always kind of been that 1516 01:03:02,970 --> 01:03:00,610 way it's always been 1517 01:03:04,890 --> 01:03:02,980 I'm not sure what to do and I don't know 1518 01:03:08,550 --> 01:03:04,900 what's happening and she's never made a 1519 01:03:11,430 --> 01:03:08,560 claim as to what it is right 1520 01:03:13,260 --> 01:03:11,440 all she knows is it's not normal so so 1521 01:03:15,150 --> 01:03:13,270 that's my that's why I think I featured 1522 01:03:17,250 --> 01:03:15,160 her as my experience or slash UFO 1523 01:03:18,390 --> 01:03:17,260 witness for most of them even though I 1524 01:03:21,150 --> 01:03:18,400 don't have any evidence to support her 1525 01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:21,160 case but you know I think and this comes 1526 01:03:26,310 --> 01:03:22,450 up in actually a future YouTube video 1527 01:03:29,970 --> 01:03:26,320 Ryan that is gonna come out next week - 1528 01:03:31,920 --> 01:03:29,980 to your book as well it's just you and I 1529 01:03:34,350 --> 01:03:31,930 mentioned you in my next YouTube video 1530 01:03:36,150 --> 01:03:34,360 but on my youtube channel which I'll 1531 01:03:39,090 --> 01:03:36,160 plug later you know you and I are sort 1532 01:03:41,880 --> 01:03:39,100 of anthropologists of a sort right like 1533 01:03:43,350 --> 01:03:41,890 we're storytellers we log stories and we 1534 01:03:45,870 --> 01:03:43,360 collect people's stories right and we 1535 01:03:47,850 --> 01:03:45,880 and we tell them for them and because we 1536 01:03:51,240 --> 01:03:47,860 get a soapbox right somebody has decided 1537 01:03:53,130 --> 01:03:51,250 to give you and me a soapbox to stand on 1538 01:03:56,370 --> 01:03:53,140 so we're gonna do what we do best which 1539 01:03:57,600 --> 01:03:56,380 is tell stories cuz that's all we can do 1540 01:03:59,580 --> 01:03:57,610 anything that's all the phenomenon 1541 01:04:00,780 --> 01:03:59,590 really lets us do I think when we get 1542 01:04:02,580 --> 01:04:00,790 too close to evidence with the 1543 01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:02,590 phenomenon like tangible evidence the 1544 01:04:09,300 --> 01:04:05,530 phenomenon changes shifts right it 1545 01:04:11,310 --> 01:04:09,310 doesn't like when we when we gather too 1546 01:04:12,930 --> 01:04:11,320 much evidence on it which is why UFOs 1547 01:04:15,090 --> 01:04:12,940 used to land and leave trace evidence 1548 01:04:17,700 --> 01:04:15,100 landing marks they don't anymore 1549 01:04:21,470 --> 01:04:17,710 you know like it's it's it's it's it 1550 01:04:24,050 --> 01:04:21,480 adapts to us I think in a way so we're 1551 01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:24,060 anthropologists of of something that 1552 01:04:29,940 --> 01:04:27,970 shouldn't exist but does so as if the 1553 01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:29,950 UFO community wasn't messy enough now we 1554 01:04:36,240 --> 01:04:33,850 learn that there are people hired to dis 1555 01:04:38,610 --> 01:04:36,250 inform and disorient all of us 1556 01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:38,620 researchers experiencers everyone in 1557 01:04:41,580 --> 01:04:39,010 between 1558 01:04:43,650 --> 01:04:41,590 would you mind touching on the 1559 01:04:47,060 --> 01:04:43,660 experiences and your interactions with 1560 01:04:50,190 --> 01:04:47,070 one of the most hated men in ufology 1561 01:04:53,700 --> 01:04:50,200 Richard Doty what role did he play in 1562 01:04:56,250 --> 01:04:53,710 UFO history and in your book well okay 1563 01:04:59,220 --> 01:04:56,260 so if you have not heard of Richard Doty 1564 01:05:03,570 --> 01:04:59,230 then you should go and like cool Richard 1565 01:05:05,250 --> 01:05:03,580 and Google Richard Toth but it's yeah 1566 01:05:07,560 --> 01:05:05,260 Richard Doty is such an interesting 1567 01:05:11,190 --> 01:05:07,570 fellow because when I first started 1568 01:05:14,190 --> 01:05:11,200 talking to him and we spoke like four 1569 01:05:16,500 --> 01:05:14,200 months on and off you know it would be 1570 01:05:18,870 --> 01:05:16,510 sort of cute Facebook messages back and 1571 01:05:22,350 --> 01:05:18,880 forth and emails then we spoke on the 1572 01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:22,360 phone and like he's a really nice guy 1573 01:05:27,030 --> 01:05:24,130 and the vast majority of our 1574 01:05:30,930 --> 01:05:27,040 conversations focused really on three 1575 01:05:34,590 --> 01:05:30,940 things one our love of like Eastern 1576 01:05:39,890 --> 01:05:34,600 European food like he and I share a 1577 01:05:44,730 --> 01:05:39,900 common like penchant for like rich 1578 01:05:46,890 --> 01:05:44,740 Ukranian German Russian polish like kill 1579 01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:46,900 your heart food on us so a lot of our 1580 01:05:51,660 --> 01:05:49,570 conversations circled around that and 1581 01:05:54,810 --> 01:05:51,670 then the second thing we talked about a 1582 01:05:56,730 --> 01:05:54,820 lot Y was like beer and we had a lot of 1583 01:05:59,250 --> 01:05:56,740 beer conversations and he is he's really 1584 01:06:04,290 --> 01:05:59,260 a fan of like dark Canadian and and 1585 01:06:07,350 --> 01:06:04,300 European beers like like like stouts and 1586 01:06:08,820 --> 01:06:07,360 and dark ales and and that kind of thing 1587 01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:08,830 and then the third thing we talked about 1588 01:06:13,830 --> 01:06:12,010 a lot were like our the children in our 1589 01:06:16,740 --> 01:06:13,840 lives so he's a grandfather so he has 1590 01:06:19,050 --> 01:06:16,750 sort of grandchildren who you know he 1591 01:06:20,370 --> 01:06:19,060 worships the ground they walk on and I 1592 01:06:22,950 --> 01:06:20,380 you know as I was telling him I was 1593 01:06:26,070 --> 01:06:22,960 recently sort of a new father to my 1594 01:06:28,830 --> 01:06:26,080 second my second child my son so you 1595 01:06:31,680 --> 01:06:28,840 know we are I was kind of growing up in 1596 01:06:33,600 --> 01:06:31,690 this in this environment of being the 1597 01:06:35,310 --> 01:06:33,610 father of now my second kid and not 1598 01:06:36,960 --> 01:06:35,320 getting any sleep and just complaining 1599 01:06:38,850 --> 01:06:36,970 about that but also enjoying the fact 1600 01:06:41,430 --> 01:06:38,860 that I had this little baby all the time 1601 01:06:43,080 --> 01:06:41,440 that you know as I'm talking to him on 1602 01:06:45,210 --> 01:06:43,090 the phone there's this like little 1603 01:06:47,880 --> 01:06:45,220 little guys to be in my arms so we often 1604 01:06:50,370 --> 01:06:47,890 had conversations about like our the 1605 01:06:52,830 --> 01:06:50,380 babies in our lives right so it's very 1606 01:06:54,750 --> 01:06:52,840 weird to have conversations with Richard 1607 01:06:57,180 --> 01:06:54,760 Doty about these three things I mean 1608 01:06:59,520 --> 01:06:57,190 because everything about Richard Doty is 1609 01:07:02,220 --> 01:06:59,530 Richard Doty the disinformation agent 1610 01:07:04,110 --> 01:07:02,230 the spook the the man who's responsible 1611 01:07:08,070 --> 01:07:04,120 for the mental breakdown of Paul 1612 01:07:11,760 --> 01:07:08,080 bennewitz the guy who basically you know 1613 01:07:14,850 --> 01:07:11,770 was an Avery aviary member in the 1980s 1614 01:07:16,050 --> 01:07:14,860 and allegedly the Falken and in the 1615 01:07:18,900 --> 01:07:16,060 Avery like you know there's this whole 1616 01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:18,910 UFO mythology around him but he's like 1617 01:07:25,530 --> 01:07:21,970 totally the most normal guy now with all 1618 01:07:28,680 --> 01:07:25,540 that being said Richard Doty is still 1619 01:07:31,920 --> 01:07:28,690 Richard Doty and you're not always sure 1620 01:07:35,880 --> 01:07:31,930 when he okay so whenever we spoke about 1621 01:07:38,340 --> 01:07:35,890 food beer and children you could easily 1622 01:07:41,040 --> 01:07:38,350 tell he was being 100% genuine 1623 01:07:42,510 --> 01:07:41,050 yeah right he is a family man first and 1624 01:07:44,610 --> 01:07:42,520 foremost and then you start talking 1625 01:07:47,100 --> 01:07:44,620 about UFOs and then all of a sudden 1626 01:07:49,500 --> 01:07:47,110 things change right like suddenly you're 1627 01:07:51,900 --> 01:07:49,510 not talking to Richard Doty it's a guy 1628 01:07:53,550 --> 01:07:51,910 who you just talk to about food and beer 1629 01:07:56,160 --> 01:07:53,560 and kids you're now talking to Richard 1630 01:07:59,730 --> 01:07:56,170 Doty who was an intelligence officer 1631 01:08:02,040 --> 01:07:59,740 mm-hmm and and you're not sure kind of 1632 01:08:03,540 --> 01:08:02,050 where you stand so in one breath you 1633 01:08:05,910 --> 01:08:03,550 know you're having these great sort of 1634 01:08:09,120 --> 01:08:05,920 back-and-forth discourse over perogies 1635 01:08:10,530 --> 01:08:09,130 and then you're then you suddenly kind 1636 01:08:12,750 --> 01:08:10,540 of mention a UFO thing and then all of a 1637 01:08:16,050 --> 01:08:12,760 sudden it's like the tone changes right 1638 01:08:16,940 --> 01:08:16,060 I don't you know III leave Richard Doty 1639 01:08:19,670 --> 01:08:16,950 in this weird 1640 01:08:23,110 --> 01:08:19,680 look like one I don't know but I think 1641 01:08:26,140 --> 01:08:23,120 that that he is very guarded about his 1642 01:08:28,760 --> 01:08:26,150 UFO his connection to the UFO community 1643 01:08:32,120 --> 01:08:28,770 he doesn't he doesn't like the UFO 1644 01:08:35,540 --> 01:08:32,130 community whatsoever he does not think 1645 01:08:38,930 --> 01:08:35,550 he's a member of it and more importantly 1646 01:08:41,660 --> 01:08:38,940 when he talks about UFOs you don't know 1647 01:08:43,340 --> 01:08:41,670 if he's telling you a story or a lie or 1648 01:08:46,940 --> 01:08:43,350 the truth 1649 01:08:49,700 --> 01:08:46,950 and there were moments where I would ask 1650 01:08:51,950 --> 01:08:49,710 him a question and then he would he 1651 01:08:54,530 --> 01:08:51,960 would give me sort of his response and 1652 01:08:57,200 --> 01:08:54,540 then I would basically give him evidence 1653 01:08:59,240 --> 01:08:57,210 that counters his response and then he 1654 01:09:01,640 --> 01:08:59,250 wouldn't talk to me for several days 1655 01:09:03,410 --> 01:09:01,650 I really think he'd become quite upset 1656 01:09:05,150 --> 01:09:03,420 about it right or at least I don't know 1657 01:09:08,150 --> 01:09:05,160 maybe this is sort of how he plays the 1658 01:09:09,470 --> 01:09:08,160 game I don't know but you know there 1659 01:09:10,640 --> 01:09:09,480 were moments where he said don't ever 1660 01:09:12,590 --> 01:09:10,650 ask me about that again I'm not talking 1661 01:09:15,680 --> 01:09:12,600 about that we're done right 1662 01:09:16,970 --> 01:09:15,690 and then I'd sort of you know be kind of 1663 01:09:18,380 --> 01:09:16,980 hanging out and then I'd sent him a cute 1664 01:09:21,650 --> 01:09:18,390 picture of my kid and we'd have 1665 01:09:23,180 --> 01:09:21,660 conversation again so it was a long I 1666 01:09:25,700 --> 01:09:23,190 think it was like four or five months of 1667 01:09:28,280 --> 01:09:25,710 on-and-off conversations and you know a 1668 01:09:30,560 --> 01:09:28,290 lot of of accusations of me not knowing 1669 01:09:32,240 --> 01:09:30,570 the whole story and and and all this and 1670 01:09:33,680 --> 01:09:32,250 and and that's fine I mean I told him 1671 01:09:36,020 --> 01:09:33,690 flat-out listen I said I'm not a UFO 1672 01:09:38,000 --> 01:09:36,030 researcher really I'm like a cultural 1673 01:09:39,920 --> 01:09:38,010 studies guy so I'm not really writing a 1674 01:09:41,120 --> 01:09:39,930 book about UFOs and he sort of at times 1675 01:09:42,740 --> 01:09:41,130 would be like we should do your research 1676 01:09:44,240 --> 01:09:42,750 on UFOs and he would kind of read me the 1677 01:09:46,190 --> 01:09:44,250 riot act because you know I'm asking 1678 01:09:47,810 --> 01:09:46,200 questions that are stupid but at the end 1679 01:09:49,400 --> 01:09:47,820 writing a book that's not necessarily 1680 01:09:52,250 --> 01:09:49,410 for people who are sort of super versed 1681 01:09:54,650 --> 01:09:52,260 in UFOs either so you know I had to kind 1682 01:09:58,010 --> 01:09:54,660 of get some that basic information but 1683 01:10:00,740 --> 01:09:58,020 overall I think Richard Doty represents 1684 01:10:04,780 --> 01:10:00,750 this this perfect example of what the 1685 01:10:09,230 --> 01:10:04,790 UFO community is the UFO community is 1686 01:10:11,480 --> 01:10:09,240 Richard Doty esque it's a mix of truth 1687 01:10:12,980 --> 01:10:11,490 and fiction it's a mix and the 1688 01:10:14,870 --> 01:10:12,990 phenomenons like that as well the UFO 1689 01:10:17,090 --> 01:10:14,880 discourse is I think the entire UFO 1690 01:10:19,850 --> 01:10:17,100 narrative the UFO discourse is a mix of 1691 01:10:22,040 --> 01:10:19,860 fact and fiction very similar to Dodie 1692 01:10:24,620 --> 01:10:22,050 Dodie himself is a mix of fact and 1693 01:10:26,660 --> 01:10:24,630 fiction nobody knows what the reality is 1694 01:10:28,460 --> 01:10:26,670 and what the mythology is nobody knows 1695 01:10:30,620 --> 01:10:28,470 what's real and what isn't when they 1696 01:10:32,870 --> 01:10:30,630 speak to Dodie about UFOs we 1697 01:10:34,790 --> 01:10:32,880 cuz that's that's what's been created 1698 01:10:38,360 --> 01:10:34,800 about him and for him and maybe by him 1699 01:10:40,820 --> 01:10:38,370 and we are like in a sense Richard Doty 1700 01:10:42,530 --> 01:10:40,830 right we don't know what aspects of the 1701 01:10:45,979 --> 01:10:42,540 UFO narrative and the Evoque discourse 1702 01:10:48,590 --> 01:10:45,989 are real and what aren't we don't know 1703 01:10:51,320 --> 01:10:48,600 what is truth and what is misinformation 1704 01:10:54,050 --> 01:10:51,330 or disinformation right when when UFO 1705 01:10:55,340 --> 01:10:54,060 experts and pundits and UFO guru stand 1706 01:10:57,470 --> 01:10:55,350 up there and tell us the truth 1707 01:10:59,720 --> 01:10:57,480 quote-unquote it's their version of the 1708 01:11:02,000 --> 01:10:59,730 truth and we don't know if their version 1709 01:11:03,590 --> 01:11:02,010 is misinformed purposefully dis informed 1710 01:11:05,990 --> 01:11:03,600 or if they're just making up or 1711 01:11:08,540 --> 01:11:06,000 they're being real and legitimate right 1712 01:11:11,390 --> 01:11:08,550 like we don't know which is which is 1713 01:11:14,479 --> 01:11:11,400 what Richard Doty is right we don't know 1714 01:11:16,419 --> 01:11:14,489 where he stands because there's been so 1715 01:11:19,939 --> 01:11:16,429 much storytelling so much mythologizing 1716 01:11:22,580 --> 01:11:19,949 and so much truth kind of all interweave 1717 01:11:24,950 --> 01:11:22,590 together so I kind of paint Richard Doty 1718 01:11:27,800 --> 01:11:24,960 at the end of it all as a sort of mirror 1719 01:11:29,689 --> 01:11:27,810 of the UFO community we don't like 1720 01:11:32,450 --> 01:11:29,699 Richard Doty because we see ourselves 1721 01:11:33,830 --> 01:11:32,460 and Richard Doty give a face to it and 1722 01:11:37,520 --> 01:11:33,840 then we don't have to blame ourselves 1723 01:11:41,120 --> 01:11:37,530 for almost mythologizing or creating a 1724 01:11:42,560 --> 01:11:41,130 myth you know it's agreed and I think we 1725 01:11:46,070 --> 01:11:42,570 have created a myth I mean like 1726 01:11:48,740 --> 01:11:46,080 ultimately we have because not every 1727 01:11:51,129 --> 01:11:48,750 aspect of the UFO discourse and the UFO 1728 01:11:54,470 --> 01:11:51,139 narrative is true there are I'm sure 1729 01:11:57,649 --> 01:11:54,480 countless cases that we deemed to be 1730 01:11:59,479 --> 01:11:57,659 like great UFO cases that are like total 1731 01:12:02,510 --> 01:11:59,489 nonsense and oh yeah 1732 01:12:04,669 --> 01:12:02,520 and and like it's just they've just kind 1733 01:12:07,580 --> 01:12:04,679 of become lionized and and they've 1734 01:12:09,950 --> 01:12:07,590 become so legendary that they become 1735 01:12:12,590 --> 01:12:09,960 these lynchpin UFO cases that are at 1736 01:12:16,700 --> 01:12:12,600 times most likely hoaxes or delusion or 1737 01:12:18,919 --> 01:12:16,710 just mistake but we make we've wanted 1738 01:12:20,870 --> 01:12:18,929 them to be real that they've become real 1739 01:12:23,899 --> 01:12:20,880 our desire for them to become authentic 1740 01:12:26,240 --> 01:12:23,909 has made them so we've made meaning 1741 01:12:27,919 --> 01:12:26,250 where there isn't any isn't that reality 1742 01:12:29,479 --> 01:12:27,929 like isn't that really how we function 1743 01:12:31,820 --> 01:12:29,489 like don't we make meaning all the time 1744 01:12:33,890 --> 01:12:31,830 like you know like really is there such 1745 01:12:35,540 --> 01:12:33,900 thing as masculine and feminine no we've 1746 01:12:38,360 --> 01:12:35,550 just made that up just to make ourselves 1747 01:12:41,030 --> 01:12:38,370 feel better I don't know same with race 1748 01:12:42,860 --> 01:12:41,040 well with this level of a conversation 1749 01:12:44,360 --> 01:12:42,870 we could I wholeheartedly agree the fact 1750 01:12:46,040 --> 01:12:44,370 that the fact that we still have 1751 01:12:48,380 --> 01:12:46,050 over sessions in the 21st century 1752 01:12:49,910 --> 01:12:48,390 concerning race is ridiculous there is 1753 01:12:52,870 --> 01:12:49,920 there are there's no such thing as race 1754 01:12:56,210 --> 01:12:52,880 there's one like we the Homo sapiens are 1755 01:12:58,430 --> 01:12:56,220 it right like skin color does not 1756 01:13:00,440 --> 01:12:58,440 indicate race right there that's that's 1757 01:13:02,720 --> 01:13:00,450 nonsense but for some reason we still 1758 01:13:04,130 --> 01:13:02,730 have this conversation for some reason 1759 01:13:07,280 --> 01:13:04,140 you know and right now I'm currently 1760 01:13:09,410 --> 01:13:07,290 working a Broadway production of To Kill 1761 01:13:11,570 --> 01:13:09,420 a Mockingbird so this is very but let me 1762 01:13:14,750 --> 01:13:11,580 right now so you know yes we could 1763 01:13:17,060 --> 01:13:14,760 tackle that issue in great but but we 1764 01:13:19,280 --> 01:13:17,070 only have so much time it's not the 1765 01:13:22,430 --> 01:13:19,290 place another place maybe maybe in 1766 01:13:24,410 --> 01:13:22,440 another somewhere in the whiskey yes get 1767 01:13:25,340 --> 01:13:24,420 me a good you know I'm that that's a 1768 01:13:27,380 --> 01:13:25,350 great idea we should do another 1769 01:13:30,320 --> 01:13:27,390 somewhere the whiskey yes we will very 1770 01:13:32,630 --> 01:13:30,330 soon yes so one of the biggest dilemmas 1771 01:13:34,940 --> 01:13:32,640 you know we as UFO researchers often 1772 01:13:37,340 --> 01:13:34,950 face is when we're asked to present 1773 01:13:41,150 --> 01:13:37,350 information on UFOs we're almost always 1774 01:13:44,330 --> 01:13:41,160 asked if we can prove alien seven have 1775 01:13:46,790 --> 01:13:44,340 visited our planet and my answer has and 1776 01:13:49,430 --> 01:13:46,800 always will be no there is not one 1777 01:13:52,160 --> 01:13:49,440 single solid shred of evidence to prove 1778 01:13:55,850 --> 01:13:52,170 that and I can as many can prove that 1779 01:13:58,190 --> 01:13:55,860 UFOs exist unidentified aerial phenomena 1780 01:14:01,580 --> 01:13:58,200 has been well documented for centuries 1781 01:14:04,160 --> 01:14:01,590 so it's always that that UFO verse alien 1782 01:14:05,840 --> 01:14:04,170 question and I'm so happy you covered 1783 01:14:09,110 --> 01:14:05,850 this in the book you tried to pinpoint 1784 01:14:11,360 --> 01:14:09,120 exactly when this relationship started 1785 01:14:14,630 --> 01:14:11,370 so what was that experience like trying 1786 01:14:19,190 --> 01:14:14,640 to sort of go to the source of when the 1787 01:14:24,050 --> 01:14:19,200 UFO involved the alien yeah man this was 1788 01:14:26,990 --> 01:14:24,060 I relied on sort of expertise here again 1789 01:14:29,840 --> 01:14:27,000 you know I'm I'm not a UFO researcher 1790 01:14:32,720 --> 01:14:29,850 like proper you know like people call me 1791 01:14:35,090 --> 01:14:32,730 that and and I'm not that I like I said 1792 01:14:36,860 --> 01:14:35,100 I'm a culture guy so when people ask me 1793 01:14:38,420 --> 01:14:36,870 you have both questions like I feel like 1794 01:14:40,550 --> 01:14:38,430 I can kind of hold my own in a UFO 1795 01:14:42,740 --> 01:14:40,560 conversation but I'm not you know like 1796 01:14:45,320 --> 01:14:42,750 I'm not Paul Dean or Richard Dolan or 1797 01:14:46,430 --> 01:14:45,330 you like I I'm not a UFO expert like 1798 01:14:48,470 --> 01:14:46,440 people ask me like well what do you 1799 01:14:50,060 --> 01:14:48,480 think what this case I'm like I've never 1800 01:14:52,040 --> 01:14:50,070 heard of that case and then people like 1801 01:14:54,590 --> 01:14:52,050 what you have an aren't you a UFO 1802 01:14:56,600 --> 01:14:54,600 researcher and it's like no go to the 1803 01:14:57,770 --> 01:14:56,610 corner but I'm just gonna go yeah I'm 1804 01:15:00,200 --> 01:14:57,780 just gonna stand here so 1805 01:15:02,210 --> 01:15:00,210 I can turn to the experts um I spoke 1806 01:15:03,860 --> 01:15:02,220 with with Paul Dean about this and I was 1807 01:15:06,800 --> 01:15:03,870 like hey you know you're a you of 1808 01:15:09,800 --> 01:15:06,810 historian and I'm all for the awful 1809 01:15:12,290 --> 01:15:09,810 historians out there you're like 1810 01:15:13,490 --> 01:15:12,300 probably the the best if not we were 1811 01:15:15,650 --> 01:15:13,500 you're one of the best there's there's 1812 01:15:19,580 --> 01:15:15,660 like a good handful of great UFO 1813 01:15:21,950 --> 01:15:19,590 historians and so I spoke with Paul Dean 1814 01:15:24,710 --> 01:15:21,960 and he decided that he would contact 1815 01:15:27,440 --> 01:15:24,720 another UFO historian by the name of 1816 01:15:28,910 --> 01:15:27,450 Barry Greenwood so if you're in the UFO 1817 01:15:30,680 --> 01:15:28,920 community like so anyway anyone in your 1818 01:15:33,080 --> 01:15:30,690 audience who's a member of like the UFO 1819 01:15:34,850 --> 01:15:33,090 community proper Barry Greenwoods name 1820 01:15:37,400 --> 01:15:34,860 comes with sort of significant Gaddafi 1821 01:15:40,070 --> 01:15:37,410 toss like this guy has written books and 1822 01:15:43,300 --> 01:15:40,080 know that he's like catalogued like the 1823 01:15:47,840 --> 01:15:43,310 history of UFOs and it's like damn good 1824 01:15:49,490 --> 01:15:47,850 research because like the guy's like a 1825 01:15:51,440 --> 01:15:49,500 UFO academic like if there was a UFO 1826 01:15:55,220 --> 01:15:51,450 academic out there Barry green what is 1827 01:15:56,480 --> 01:15:55,230 it so they decided that to help me with 1828 01:16:00,140 --> 01:15:56,490 this book they would sort of write a 1829 01:16:02,750 --> 01:16:00,150 joint essay which has never been done 1830 01:16:04,760 --> 01:16:02,760 before a joint Paul Dean Barry Greenwood 1831 01:16:06,260 --> 01:16:04,770 essay so I'm happy that that happened 1832 01:16:07,700 --> 01:16:06,270 and more importantly it is like the 1833 01:16:09,500 --> 01:16:07,710 first time it ever happened is gonna be 1834 01:16:11,840 --> 01:16:09,510 in the book so if you want to read a 1835 01:16:13,700 --> 01:16:11,850 joint essay on UFO history by Barry 1836 01:16:16,790 --> 01:16:13,710 Greenwood and Paul Dean you have to buy 1837 01:16:18,310 --> 01:16:16,800 my book and it's it's spectacular and 1838 01:16:21,050 --> 01:16:18,320 it's and it's and it's quite 1839 01:16:22,910 --> 01:16:21,060 approachable the one thing about Paul 1840 01:16:27,050 --> 01:16:22,920 Dean and Barry Greenwood is they're so 1841 01:16:29,090 --> 01:16:27,060 into the the history of UFOs that they 1842 01:16:32,690 --> 01:16:29,100 could easily produce like a twenty 1843 01:16:35,470 --> 01:16:32,700 thousand page document within days and 1844 01:16:37,820 --> 01:16:35,480 it would be so robust and so unreachable 1845 01:16:40,010 --> 01:16:37,830 because you'd have to be like them to 1846 01:16:43,100 --> 01:16:40,020 read it you know like there'd be so much 1847 01:16:45,740 --> 01:16:43,110 nuance you'd get lost Anna so they I 1848 01:16:47,600 --> 01:16:45,750 made them trim it down to like a meager 1849 01:16:49,550 --> 01:16:47,610 like twelve hundred words or whatever it 1850 01:16:51,500 --> 01:16:49,560 was and I remember talking to Paul Dean 1851 01:16:53,270 --> 01:16:51,510 and I told him you know like okay we got 1852 01:16:54,560 --> 01:16:53,280 to keep it to like I think I used the 1853 01:16:56,750 --> 01:16:54,570 expression like oh yeah listen my 1854 01:16:58,580 --> 01:16:56,760 publisher I'll give you twelve and he 1855 01:17:01,040 --> 01:16:58,590 thought he like I meant twelve thousand 1856 01:17:03,140 --> 01:17:01,050 words and he was ecstatic I said no no I 1857 01:17:05,210 --> 01:17:03,150 mean like twelve hundred and he like he 1858 01:17:06,800 --> 01:17:05,220 flipped his lid like over the phone you 1859 01:17:08,210 --> 01:17:06,810 know he whatever it was it must have 1860 01:17:10,190 --> 01:17:08,220 been like 2 a.m. in Australia when I 1861 01:17:11,370 --> 01:17:10,200 talked and the squares that came out of 1862 01:17:13,979 --> 01:17:11,380 his mouth 1863 01:17:16,620 --> 01:17:13,989 where I was like well alright so anyway 1864 01:17:19,380 --> 01:17:16,630 they did it and trying to pare down you 1865 01:17:24,959 --> 01:17:19,390 know all UFO history in those two brains 1866 01:17:28,860 --> 01:17:24,969 to 1200 words was a challenge yeah I 1867 01:17:31,380 --> 01:17:28,870 mean you know you know turning whatever 1868 01:17:33,000 --> 01:17:31,390 it is five loaves and two fishes to feed 1869 01:17:37,590 --> 01:17:33,010 thousands that's a miracle 1870 01:17:40,979 --> 01:17:37,600 but this was something else and you know 1871 01:17:45,360 --> 01:17:40,989 really they they kind of helped me frame 1872 01:17:48,060 --> 01:17:45,370 up the modern history of UFOs and and 1873 01:17:51,240 --> 01:17:48,070 really really bringing a lot of evidence 1874 01:17:53,550 --> 01:17:51,250 especially from newspaper articles and 1875 01:17:57,090 --> 01:17:53,560 and government reports that came out 1876 01:17:59,640 --> 01:17:57,100 especially in the 1940s and 50s that I'm 1877 01:18:01,709 --> 01:17:59,650 sure the vast majority of people in the 1878 01:18:04,890 --> 01:18:01,719 UFO community had never heard of or have 1879 01:18:06,479 --> 01:18:04,900 never heard of currently like I said the 1880 01:18:07,830 --> 01:18:06,489 paper that they wrote or the essay 1881 01:18:10,650 --> 01:18:07,840 rather they wrote brings out a lot of 1882 01:18:14,459 --> 01:18:10,660 information that the vast majority of 1883 01:18:17,130 --> 01:18:14,469 people who currently study UFOs wouldn't 1884 01:18:19,979 --> 01:18:17,140 know about but they really hit home this 1885 01:18:21,630 --> 01:18:19,989 idea that the idea that UFOs came from 1886 01:18:25,260 --> 01:18:21,640 like flying saucers rather came from 1887 01:18:26,700 --> 01:18:25,270 Mars and Venus and other sort of planets 1888 01:18:29,340 --> 01:18:26,710 in our solar system and that they're 1889 01:18:32,850 --> 01:18:29,350 alien that their extraterrestrial really 1890 01:18:35,550 --> 01:18:32,860 began in newspaper reports and 1891 01:18:38,490 --> 01:18:35,560 government reports from military 1892 01:18:40,200 --> 01:18:38,500 officers who sort of like these sort of 1893 01:18:41,550 --> 01:18:40,210 estimates of the situation where the you 1894 01:18:44,000 --> 01:18:41,560 know they kind of said you know these 1895 01:18:45,900 --> 01:18:44,010 are these are mainly probably you know 1896 01:18:47,670 --> 01:18:45,910 extraterrestrial in some way or they're 1897 01:18:50,850 --> 01:18:47,680 they're they're Martians or whatever and 1898 01:18:52,830 --> 01:18:50,860 these are like not publicly kind of 1899 01:18:54,030 --> 01:18:52,840 project signed project grudge project 1900 01:18:57,150 --> 01:18:54,040 Bluebook ones these are sort of other 1901 01:18:59,100 --> 01:18:57,160 smaller reports that that they cite and 1902 01:19:01,229 --> 01:18:59,110 and it's unbelievable to read that 1903 01:19:03,900 --> 01:19:01,239 really it was when we think about the 1904 01:19:06,930 --> 01:19:03,910 extra-terrestrial question in modern 1905 01:19:11,130 --> 01:19:06,940 ufology it was pretty much a government 1906 01:19:13,590 --> 01:19:11,140 / media push right this is what they 1907 01:19:16,620 --> 01:19:13,600 thought was happening various officers 1908 01:19:18,630 --> 01:19:16,630 majors and Colonels and captains in the 1909 01:19:21,630 --> 01:19:18,640 military and then from the journalists 1910 01:19:24,750 --> 01:19:21,640 that published but then going further 1911 01:19:27,090 --> 01:19:24,760 back in my own research realized 1912 01:19:29,970 --> 01:19:27,100 that this actually has sort of a more 1913 01:19:32,400 --> 01:19:29,980 even older origin and going back to the 1914 01:19:35,640 --> 01:19:32,410 roots of an old sort of pseudo religion 1915 01:19:37,940 --> 01:19:35,650 called theosophy which was was written 1916 01:19:40,020 --> 01:19:37,950 and sort of developed by a woman named 1917 01:19:42,960 --> 01:19:40,030 helena blavatsky who is sort of a 1918 01:19:45,270 --> 01:19:42,970 russian aristocrat oligarch who kind of 1919 01:19:48,750 --> 01:19:45,280 started her own religion I suppose in 1920 01:19:50,580 --> 01:19:48,760 reaction to Darwinism and in reaction to 1921 01:19:54,479 --> 01:19:50,590 evolution which serve recently occurred 1922 01:19:57,630 --> 01:19:54,489 in the late 1800s as an idea this idea 1923 01:20:01,620 --> 01:19:57,640 that humanity was seeded by sort of 1924 01:20:03,510 --> 01:20:01,630 these ancient proto races and some of 1925 01:20:06,600 --> 01:20:03,520 them came from like Venus and other 1926 01:20:09,690 --> 01:20:06,610 planets so we have very early on this 1927 01:20:11,520 --> 01:20:09,700 this idea that at least in western 1928 01:20:13,650 --> 01:20:11,530 thinking that there were sort of these 1929 01:20:16,830 --> 01:20:13,660 ancient races that came to our planet 1930 01:20:20,340 --> 01:20:16,840 seeded our planet with various proto 1931 01:20:23,640 --> 01:20:20,350 races and then sort of from that stem to 1932 01:20:26,670 --> 01:20:23,650 other races and and to us and and now 1933 01:20:28,890 --> 01:20:26,680 here we are but really we are sort of we 1934 01:20:30,390 --> 01:20:28,900 have this divine spark given to us by 1935 01:20:31,560 --> 01:20:30,400 these other I suppose you can use the 1936 01:20:32,850 --> 01:20:31,570 term aliens now she would have never 1937 01:20:34,520 --> 01:20:32,860 used the term aliens because the term 1938 01:20:36,240 --> 01:20:34,530 didn't exist in that context or 1939 01:20:39,690 --> 01:20:36,250 extraterrestrials didn't exist in that 1940 01:20:41,729 --> 01:20:39,700 context yet as a term but this this 1941 01:20:46,050 --> 01:20:41,739 notion that people from other planets 1942 01:20:47,520 --> 01:20:46,060 came to create us a sort of a very early 1943 01:20:50,640 --> 01:20:47,530 kind of version of ancient astronaut 1944 01:20:51,660 --> 01:20:50,650 theory and really when you kind of start 1945 01:20:54,180 --> 01:20:51,670 looking at this and then you start 1946 01:20:58,320 --> 01:20:54,190 tracing this lineage this how her 1947 01:21:01,800 --> 01:20:58,330 religion became fodder for the 1920s 1948 01:21:04,620 --> 01:21:01,810 1930s and 1940s sort of comic books and 1949 01:21:06,810 --> 01:21:04,630 and amazing stories and and and those 1950 01:21:09,330 --> 01:21:06,820 publications and how they kind of 1951 01:21:12,720 --> 01:21:09,340 progressed the narrative right when you 1952 01:21:17,070 --> 01:21:12,730 think about all of the alien abduction 1953 01:21:18,780 --> 01:21:17,080 flying saucer aliens whatever X dressed 1954 01:21:23,040 --> 01:21:18,790 rails really these stories were told in 1955 01:21:24,450 --> 01:21:23,050 the 1930s 1920's and 1930's and then it 1956 01:21:27,000 --> 01:21:24,460 kind of went further on right into the 1957 01:21:30,000 --> 01:21:27,010 1940s and it just sort of evolved along 1958 01:21:32,640 --> 01:21:30,010 with our culture and our in our society 1959 01:21:36,450 --> 01:21:32,650 and the current anxieties and desires we 1960 01:21:38,040 --> 01:21:36,460 had as a culture in the West so clearly 1961 01:21:39,930 --> 01:21:38,050 you know aliens in 1950 1962 01:21:43,260 --> 01:21:39,940 a response to kind of Cold War jitters 1963 01:21:43,979 --> 01:21:43,270 and and and that type of thing but when 1964 01:21:45,720 --> 01:21:43,989 you kind of look at the 1965 01:21:48,959 --> 01:21:45,730 extra-terrestrial question it really 1966 01:21:50,669 --> 01:21:48,969 began in like the late 1800s as an ocean 1967 01:21:52,830 --> 01:21:50,679 but then it wasn't until kind of the 1968 01:21:55,410 --> 01:21:52,840 1940s that you had sort of this official 1969 01:21:57,660 --> 01:21:55,420 idea from the government and from the 1970 01:21:59,549 --> 01:21:57,670 media that pushed this extraterrestrial 1971 01:22:02,010 --> 01:21:59,559 narrative and and what helped along the 1972 01:22:05,189 --> 01:22:02,020 lines were all of these fictional 1973 01:22:08,040 --> 01:22:05,199 accounts from amazing stories and these 1974 01:22:09,899 --> 01:22:08,050 other publications that kind of promoted 1975 01:22:11,430 --> 01:22:09,909 oh you know here's here's a comic book 1976 01:22:15,870 --> 01:22:11,440 story about a flying saucer and aliens 1977 01:22:18,680 --> 01:22:15,880 or hg wells War of the Worlds so you had 1978 01:22:21,600 --> 01:22:18,690 these these sort of media 1979 01:22:23,220 --> 01:22:21,610 fictionalization z-- that push the alien 1980 01:22:29,310 --> 01:22:23,230 narrative and I think it kind of took 1981 01:22:31,859 --> 01:22:29,320 hold we we like the idea of UFOs being 1982 01:22:35,609 --> 01:22:31,869 caused by physical extraterrestrials 1983 01:22:37,500 --> 01:22:35,619 like you and I I think for for one key 1984 01:22:39,780 --> 01:22:37,510 reason if they're physical like you and 1985 01:22:43,290 --> 01:22:39,790 I that means they're like you and I 1986 01:22:47,220 --> 01:22:43,300 right we can we can engage with them or 1987 01:22:48,810 --> 01:22:47,230 if need be kill them and and they don't 1988 01:22:51,660 --> 01:22:48,820 they're not so spooky right they're 1989 01:22:53,819 --> 01:22:51,670 biological like we are they a function 1990 01:22:55,200 --> 01:22:53,829 like we do they think like we do and 1991 01:22:57,149 --> 01:22:55,210 this is why a lot of science fiction 1992 01:22:58,350 --> 01:22:57,159 aliens are just humans right like 1993 01:22:59,669 --> 01:22:58,360 they're they're very they have a lot of 1994 01:23:01,530 --> 01:22:59,679 human emotions a lot of human 1995 01:23:03,810 --> 01:23:01,540 characteristics look at Star Trek for 1996 01:23:05,879 --> 01:23:03,820 example right like every single alien is 1997 01:23:08,189 --> 01:23:05,889 like basically like a human being and 1998 01:23:10,740 --> 01:23:08,199 they're just aspects of humans that 1999 01:23:14,669 --> 01:23:10,750 Klingons are violent side and the 2000 01:23:16,979 --> 01:23:14,679 Romulans are our like sneaky backstabby 2001 01:23:18,359 --> 01:23:16,989 side and the Vulcans are a logical side 2002 01:23:21,209 --> 01:23:18,369 like you know like you can kind of see 2003 01:23:23,910 --> 01:23:21,219 humanity and everything and I think with 2004 01:23:26,220 --> 01:23:23,920 aliens and extraterrestrials we tried to 2005 01:23:27,660 --> 01:23:26,230 we like that model and I think the 2006 01:23:29,970 --> 01:23:27,670 extra-terrestrial hypothesis has really 2007 01:23:32,399 --> 01:23:29,980 taken hold because we want to see 2008 01:23:34,649 --> 01:23:32,409 ourselves in the other once you start 2009 01:23:37,260 --> 01:23:34,659 dabbling in other aspects of Eufaula or 2010 01:23:38,970 --> 01:23:37,270 of UFO discourse rather when you start 2011 01:23:41,310 --> 01:23:38,980 leaving the extra-terrestrial hypothesis 2012 01:23:44,850 --> 01:23:41,320 but behind when you start dealing with 2013 01:23:46,319 --> 01:23:44,860 notions of maybe we're dealing with 2014 01:23:47,819 --> 01:23:46,329 something more mystical or something 2015 01:23:49,319 --> 01:23:47,829 more divine or even something even more 2016 01:23:50,760 --> 01:23:49,329 complicated like you know I don't use a 2017 01:23:51,479 --> 01:23:50,770 term interdimensional but something that 2018 01:23:54,630 --> 01:23:51,489 that doesn't 2019 01:23:56,970 --> 01:23:54,640 from from a human standpoint it becomes 2020 01:23:59,130 --> 01:23:56,980 much more frightening because it's not 2021 01:24:01,170 --> 01:23:59,140 gonna necessarily in in our estimation 2022 01:24:02,700 --> 01:24:01,180 think like us or function like us or use 2023 01:24:04,350 --> 01:24:02,710 technology like us it may not have 2024 01:24:09,360 --> 01:24:04,360 technology at all it might just be 2025 01:24:10,950 --> 01:24:09,370 totally different so non-human that we 2026 01:24:11,970 --> 01:24:10,960 don't know how to deal with it or look 2027 01:24:14,370 --> 01:24:11,980 at it or even see it 2028 01:24:16,920 --> 01:24:14,380 we become quite anxious and frightened 2029 01:24:20,370 --> 01:24:16,930 by that the the book hunt for the 2030 01:24:22,500 --> 01:24:20,380 skinwalker when I read it really kind of 2031 01:24:24,240 --> 01:24:22,510 hit this home for me and and and and I 2032 01:24:25,770 --> 01:24:24,250 hadn't read sort of a lot of kill and a 2033 01:24:27,479 --> 01:24:25,780 lot of Vallet so I kind of had these 2034 01:24:30,270 --> 01:24:27,489 ideas in my head already but when Colm 2035 01:24:32,160 --> 01:24:30,280 Kelleher presents this notion of you 2036 01:24:35,040 --> 01:24:32,170 know this portal opens up and this 2037 01:24:36,990 --> 01:24:35,050 creature crawls out of it right this 2038 01:24:38,610 --> 01:24:37,000 monster right or this monster that's 2039 01:24:39,900 --> 01:24:38,620 perched in a tree and they take shots at 2040 01:24:41,700 --> 01:24:39,910 it and just kind of disappears or 2041 01:24:43,800 --> 01:24:41,710 retreats and it doesn't there's no blood 2042 01:24:46,709 --> 01:24:43,810 or injury you know like we're dealing 2043 01:24:48,690 --> 01:24:46,719 with something totally non-human and and 2044 01:24:51,150 --> 01:24:48,700 whether it's intelligent or not we don't 2045 01:24:54,330 --> 01:24:51,160 know but because we don't know that's 2046 01:24:56,400 --> 01:24:54,340 frightening right yeah aliens are not as 2047 01:24:58,050 --> 01:24:56,410 frightening because we can pin humanity 2048 01:25:01,229 --> 01:24:58,060 on them where when you deal with 2049 01:25:03,360 --> 01:25:01,239 creatures that aren't human and do not 2050 01:25:05,700 --> 01:25:03,370 follow the rules of being human or do 2051 01:25:10,620 --> 01:25:05,710 not follow the rules of anything really 2052 01:25:12,360 --> 01:25:10,630 that we would understand it's it it you 2053 01:25:14,580 --> 01:25:12,370 suddenly like worry about your kids play 2054 01:25:16,110 --> 01:25:14,590 in the backyard alone right because like 2055 01:25:18,620 --> 01:25:16,120 what if that manifests right there 2056 01:25:21,000 --> 01:25:18,630 in front of them and then what do you do 2057 01:25:22,320 --> 01:25:21,010 which is I really hope it's aliens 2058 01:25:24,840 --> 01:25:22,330 because I can reason with an alien I 2059 01:25:26,100 --> 01:25:24,850 think you know what I mean where is it 2060 01:25:28,770 --> 01:25:26,110 about to deal with some creature calling 2061 01:25:30,300 --> 01:25:28,780 out of a hole and it's all distorted and 2062 01:25:31,440 --> 01:25:30,310 weird and it's made out of shadows it's 2063 01:25:34,410 --> 01:25:31,450 like all great what I'm gonna do with 2064 01:25:37,650 --> 01:25:34,420 this yeah yeah what sort of name or 2065 01:25:39,510 --> 01:25:37,660 identity do you give to something so you 2066 01:25:41,760 --> 01:25:39,520 know forgive the pun alien that we can't 2067 01:25:42,840 --> 01:25:41,770 even man Ryan you just say the right 2068 01:25:47,760 --> 01:25:42,850 thing at the right time because I think 2069 01:25:49,229 --> 01:25:47,770 that's Xavier to gether because you just 2070 01:25:51,209 --> 01:25:49,239 said it right like like what kind of 2071 01:25:52,950 --> 01:25:51,219 name or how do you identify it right I 2072 01:25:54,900 --> 01:25:52,960 think that's the key point you and I can 2073 01:25:57,600 --> 01:25:54,910 identify like as humans we can sort of 2074 01:26:00,060 --> 01:25:57,610 identify a biological alien right we can 2075 01:26:02,940 --> 01:26:00,070 sort of name it and attempt to possess 2076 01:26:04,979 --> 01:26:02,950 it and I mentioned the right role I 2077 01:26:05,969 --> 01:26:04,989 think it is about control and we do this 2078 01:26:09,120 --> 01:26:05,979 all the time right when 2079 01:26:12,449 --> 01:26:09,130 whenever we buy anything alien related 2080 01:26:14,100 --> 01:26:12,459 and we possess the alien right we we we 2081 01:26:16,620 --> 01:26:14,110 subconsciously allow ourselves to 2082 01:26:18,029 --> 01:26:16,630 possess this other that we have no 2083 01:26:19,469 --> 01:26:18,039 control over that's why you can you know 2084 01:26:20,669 --> 01:26:19,479 by an alien sticker and put on your 2085 01:26:22,379 --> 01:26:20,679 laptop and be like yes 2086 01:26:23,640 --> 01:26:22,389 you know it's an alien I own it you kind 2087 01:26:26,330 --> 01:26:23,650 of kind of gives you a comfort in a 2088 01:26:30,180 --> 01:26:26,340 sense but if it's something that you 2089 01:26:33,270 --> 01:26:30,190 cannot know because it's so opposite of 2090 01:26:35,699 --> 01:26:33,280 us you can't identify it you can't have 2091 01:26:38,969 --> 01:26:35,709 power over it right I'm reminded of the 2092 01:26:42,029 --> 01:26:38,979 in in sort of the Bible and sort of the 2093 01:26:44,069 --> 01:26:42,039 common idea of whenever a priest needs 2094 01:26:46,799 --> 01:26:44,079 to do an exorcism the first thing the 2095 01:26:48,209 --> 01:26:46,809 priest needs to do is demand what the 2096 01:26:49,739 --> 01:26:48,219 name of the demon is right because once 2097 01:26:52,410 --> 01:26:49,749 you have the name of the demon you have 2098 01:26:54,359 --> 01:26:52,420 control over it so in the Bible you have 2099 01:26:56,069 --> 01:26:54,369 these often moments where where demons 2100 01:26:59,100 --> 01:26:56,079 are expelled from people and the first 2101 01:27:00,750 --> 01:26:59,110 question asked by dispeller and usually 2102 01:27:02,609 --> 01:27:00,760 it's Christ you know it's like who are 2103 01:27:05,969 --> 01:27:02,619 you like tell me your name and the demon 2104 01:27:07,859 --> 01:27:05,979 has to tell him his name and and the 2105 01:27:10,680 --> 01:27:07,869 same thing when priests do exorcisms 2106 01:27:12,540 --> 01:27:10,690 they they demand to know the demons name 2107 01:27:14,910 --> 01:27:12,550 and the demon eventually tells them the 2108 01:27:16,229 --> 01:27:14,920 name and then suddenly they can dispel 2109 01:27:18,410 --> 01:27:16,239 the demon right they can exorcise the 2110 01:27:20,669 --> 01:27:18,420 demon yeah because power over it right 2111 01:27:22,830 --> 01:27:20,679 identifying something automatically 2112 01:27:25,040 --> 01:27:22,840 gives you power over that thing mm-hmm 2113 01:27:27,239 --> 01:27:25,050 but if you're dealing with something so 2114 01:27:29,009 --> 01:27:27,249 T's the term alien is wrong but to use 2115 01:27:32,040 --> 01:27:29,019 this to identify you cannot identify 2116 01:27:33,779 --> 01:27:32,050 something so opposite of us if it's 2117 01:27:36,870 --> 01:27:33,789 unidentifiable you have zero control 2118 01:27:38,339 --> 01:27:36,880 over it and I think that this is why a 2119 01:27:40,500 --> 01:27:38,349 lot of people kind of like the ET 2120 01:27:42,870 --> 01:27:40,510 hypothesis because it allows that person 2121 01:27:45,719 --> 01:27:42,880 to self control over the unknown and the 2122 01:27:47,040 --> 01:27:45,729 unknown and the phenomenon I think is a 2123 01:27:51,149 --> 01:27:47,050 great example something we don't have 2124 01:27:54,419 --> 01:27:51,159 control over and hence we can't identify 2125 01:27:54,830 --> 01:27:54,429 it ever and it just scares the hell out 2126 01:27:58,080 --> 01:27:54,840 of people 2127 01:28:00,509 --> 01:27:58,090 absolutely man I mean ie if we find the 2128 01:28:02,370 --> 01:28:00,519 answer to the UFO phenomenon I really 2129 01:28:06,120 --> 01:28:02,380 hope it is alien cuz I can't deal with 2130 01:28:07,439 --> 01:28:06,130 anything other than yeah I remember we 2131 01:28:08,759 --> 01:28:07,449 had a conversation I think this was an 2132 01:28:10,919 --> 01:28:08,769 onion 2133 01:28:12,359 --> 01:28:10,929 on season 1 you from that you and I were 2134 01:28:14,189 --> 01:28:12,369 on Jim Perry's show or something right 2135 01:28:15,750 --> 01:28:14,199 and yeah and I think he asked like you 2136 01:28:16,739 --> 01:28:15,760 know about the extra hypothesis and I 2137 01:28:17,370 --> 01:28:16,749 think I think we sort of said you know 2138 01:28:18,660 --> 01:28:17,380 we would 2139 01:28:19,919 --> 01:28:18,670 we'd really like it to be aliens because 2140 01:28:21,419 --> 01:28:19,929 we can we can sit down have dinner with 2141 01:28:25,680 --> 01:28:21,429 them and have conversations right where 2142 01:28:28,500 --> 01:28:25,690 if it's anything else we're screwed oh 2143 01:28:31,290 --> 01:28:28,510 well you know going back to that idea of 2144 01:28:34,080 --> 01:28:31,300 power that really resonated with me in 2145 01:28:36,120 --> 01:28:34,090 terms of who we give power to answer 2146 01:28:38,310 --> 01:28:36,130 these things for us and a lot of the 2147 01:28:40,439 --> 01:28:38,320 times that's the the scientific 2148 01:28:42,660 --> 01:28:40,449 community you know in asking the alien 2149 01:28:45,390 --> 01:28:42,670 question and beyond you covered this 2150 01:28:48,330 --> 01:28:45,400 pretty heavily in the book too we view 2151 01:28:50,010 --> 01:28:48,340 scientists as superior you know kind of 2152 01:28:52,319 --> 01:28:50,020 to the rest of society at times and 2153 01:28:55,800 --> 01:28:52,329 there's a lot of hardcore UFO believers 2154 01:28:57,780 --> 01:28:55,810 who in my opinion ironically are 2155 01:29:00,270 --> 01:28:57,790 skeptical of the scientific community 2156 01:29:02,939 --> 01:29:00,280 because they believe they are there to 2157 01:29:06,330 --> 01:29:02,949 disprove the UFO phenomena and then live 2158 01:29:08,550 --> 01:29:06,340 in some rigid and objective reality it's 2159 01:29:10,530 --> 01:29:08,560 a phantom war is what I call it in my 2160 01:29:13,109 --> 01:29:10,540 own book that we've sort of created 2161 01:29:15,060 --> 01:29:13,119 between us and the scientists and I was 2162 01:29:18,450 --> 01:29:15,070 so happy to see that you broke this down 2163 01:29:20,370 --> 01:29:18,460 way more eloquently than I did with the 2164 01:29:23,220 --> 01:29:20,380 work of fritz haber could you maybe tell 2165 01:29:25,830 --> 01:29:23,230 us why you decided to use this as an 2166 01:29:29,160 --> 01:29:25,840 example in tackling the scientific 2167 01:29:31,129 --> 01:29:29,170 community in your book yeah yeah it was 2168 01:29:34,080 --> 01:29:31,139 interesting I think we often perceive 2169 01:29:39,390 --> 01:29:34,090 the pursuit of science as being a purely 2170 01:29:41,220 --> 01:29:39,400 objective act we often view view one the 2171 01:29:43,229 --> 01:29:41,230 act of science as being totally 2172 01:29:46,589 --> 01:29:43,239 objective which i think is fraudulent or 2173 01:29:48,930 --> 01:29:46,599 is a false claim and we also view some 2174 01:29:51,089 --> 01:29:48,940 scientists as being objective people 2175 01:29:54,569 --> 01:29:51,099 which is funny and because people are 2176 01:29:58,979 --> 01:29:54,579 never objective so so we paint science 2177 01:30:01,470 --> 01:29:58,989 as this this idea that that so long as 2178 01:30:03,870 --> 01:30:01,480 it's done well it's always right and 2179 01:30:07,260 --> 01:30:03,880 it's always just and it's always true 2180 01:30:08,939 --> 01:30:07,270 and it's funny because scientists at the 2181 01:30:10,859 --> 01:30:08,949 end of the day are just people and and 2182 01:30:12,870 --> 01:30:10,869 and science all it really is is a 2183 01:30:15,959 --> 01:30:12,880 collection of people there's no such 2184 01:30:18,629 --> 01:30:15,969 thing as science outside of people 2185 01:30:21,000 --> 01:30:18,639 themselves if people do not exist 2186 01:30:22,560 --> 01:30:21,010 science would not exist and the thing 2187 01:30:27,149 --> 01:30:22,570 about people is we're all incredibly 2188 01:30:29,010 --> 01:30:27,159 subjective we we function in our daily 2189 01:30:30,780 --> 01:30:29,020 lives and our daily lives kind of build 2190 01:30:30,959 --> 01:30:30,790 meaning for us right like I mentioned 2191 01:30:33,450 --> 01:30:30,969 with 2192 01:30:35,790 --> 01:30:33,460 Derrida language forms the basis of 2193 01:30:38,340 --> 01:30:35,800 meaning and science functions upon 2194 01:30:40,770 --> 01:30:38,350 language all science requires language 2195 01:30:42,240 --> 01:30:40,780 for science to happen for science to 2196 01:30:44,729 --> 01:30:42,250 occur the scientific method itself 2197 01:30:47,250 --> 01:30:44,739 requires language in order to be a 2198 01:30:49,560 --> 01:30:47,260 process so if language itself is 2199 01:30:52,410 --> 01:30:49,570 subjective because language is 2200 01:30:54,660 --> 01:30:52,420 subjective we have agreed to make 2201 01:30:58,170 --> 01:30:54,670 certain things be words and sentences 2202 01:31:00,689 --> 01:30:58,180 and and and ideas and meaning this is 2203 01:31:04,620 --> 01:31:00,699 purely a subjective act how can science 2204 01:31:07,290 --> 01:31:04,630 then be totally objective if if Sciences 2205 01:31:07,950 --> 01:31:07,300 entire foundation rests upon something 2206 01:31:10,350 --> 01:31:07,960 subjective 2207 01:31:11,459 --> 01:31:10,360 there's no way science can be objective 2208 01:31:14,310 --> 01:31:11,469 not totally 2209 01:31:15,930 --> 01:31:14,320 now that again I I'm a big fan of 2210 01:31:17,550 --> 01:31:15,940 science I love science like you know the 2211 01:31:18,780 --> 01:31:17,560 fact that planes fly and you know 2212 01:31:21,810 --> 01:31:18,790 gravity's a thing and the earth is round 2213 01:31:24,990 --> 01:31:21,820 that makes me happy so I'm not saying 2214 01:31:26,910 --> 01:31:25,000 wait the earth is round no we had to 2215 01:31:30,450 --> 01:31:26,920 have a debate no this is kidney you 2216 01:31:34,620 --> 01:31:32,340 I mean think pushes the buttons tonight 2217 01:31:37,920 --> 01:31:34,630 man listen if a flat earther has a 2218 01:31:40,020 --> 01:31:37,930 problem they can come see me like I'm 2219 01:31:41,459 --> 01:31:40,030 not saying that science isn't important 2220 01:31:44,700 --> 01:31:41,469 like I'm a big fan of science I'm very 2221 01:31:47,430 --> 01:31:44,710 Pro science but I think what we need to 2222 01:31:50,490 --> 01:31:47,440 avoid is is this notion of scientism or 2223 01:31:53,459 --> 01:31:50,500 the dogma of science I think often we 2224 01:31:57,420 --> 01:31:53,469 treat science has something that is 100% 2225 01:32:00,630 --> 01:31:57,430 true and factual and and objectively so 2226 01:32:03,860 --> 01:32:00,640 as if it has like some outside of 2227 01:32:06,450 --> 01:32:03,870 humanity reality when it really doesn't 2228 01:32:09,479 --> 01:32:06,460 and and I use the example of of Haber 2229 01:32:12,120 --> 01:32:09,489 because you know Haber was this 2230 01:32:15,930 --> 01:32:12,130 interesting cat he was a scientist a 2231 01:32:18,570 --> 01:32:15,940 chemist and who lived in the early 2232 01:32:21,330 --> 01:32:18,580 1900's late well he started late 1800s 2233 01:32:25,890 --> 01:32:21,340 Early 1900s and he was a German 2234 01:32:28,229 --> 01:32:25,900 scientist and and his invention that 2235 01:32:30,360 --> 01:32:28,239 sort of brought him great fame and and 2236 01:32:34,979 --> 01:32:30,370 and a bit of fortune was he basically 2237 01:32:36,650 --> 01:32:34,989 invented fertilizer so and and various 2238 01:32:40,290 --> 01:32:36,660 pesticides and stuff like that so so 2239 01:32:43,229 --> 01:32:40,300 even today in 2019 his invention that he 2240 01:32:43,800 --> 01:32:43,239 created in like 1905 or whatever was the 2241 01:32:47,580 --> 01:32:43,810 camera 2242 01:32:50,430 --> 01:32:47,590 date we still use it today in in regards 2243 01:32:53,970 --> 01:32:50,440 to fertilizing or crops so so Haber is 2244 01:32:56,130 --> 01:32:53,980 responsible but almost from a food 2245 01:32:58,260 --> 01:32:56,140 standpoint single-handedly for allowing 2246 01:33:00,590 --> 01:32:58,270 the human population to one get to its 2247 01:33:03,300 --> 01:33:00,600 current size of nearly 8 billion people 2248 01:33:06,870 --> 01:33:03,310 and providing and being able to grow 2249 01:33:10,020 --> 01:33:06,880 crops to that extent like our entire 2250 01:33:13,680 --> 01:33:10,030 farming industry and agricultural life 2251 01:33:16,200 --> 01:33:13,690 as a species since the early 1900's is a 2252 01:33:19,140 --> 01:33:16,210 direct result of his invention to to add 2253 01:33:21,030 --> 01:33:19,150 nitrogen hydrogen to to fertilizer and 2254 01:33:23,490 --> 01:33:21,040 then soil which allows plants to grow 2255 01:33:25,470 --> 01:33:23,500 more efficiently healthier and then 2256 01:33:30,300 --> 01:33:25,480 provide more yields so more people can 2257 01:33:32,610 --> 01:33:30,310 eat yet he is also known as the father 2258 01:33:35,310 --> 01:33:32,620 of chemical warfare so in the same 2259 01:33:38,520 --> 01:33:35,320 breath while he is the guy who basically 2260 01:33:40,020 --> 01:33:38,530 has allowed billions of people to eat 2261 01:33:42,960 --> 01:33:40,030 and live on this planet 2262 01:33:45,210 --> 01:33:42,970 he also single-handedly developed one of 2263 01:33:48,150 --> 01:33:45,220 the worst weapons in in in wartime 2264 01:33:50,580 --> 01:33:48,160 history which is like mustard gas and 2265 01:33:52,920 --> 01:33:50,590 chlorine gas that was used against 2266 01:33:58,560 --> 01:33:52,930 Allied soldiers in the First World War 2267 01:34:00,210 --> 01:33:58,570 so so when we think about Haber we often 2268 01:34:02,430 --> 01:34:00,220 you know view from a scientific 2269 01:34:05,070 --> 01:34:02,440 standpoint how how great he was and how 2270 01:34:08,390 --> 01:34:05,080 his his inventions are this objective 2271 01:34:12,360 --> 01:34:08,400 force for for good yet at the same time 2272 01:34:15,470 --> 01:34:12,370 when his country called upon him to to 2273 01:34:18,570 --> 01:34:15,480 help them win a war he very quickly 2274 01:34:21,150 --> 01:34:18,580 became not the man who was able to feed 2275 01:34:25,980 --> 01:34:21,160 billions of people by his invention but 2276 01:34:30,090 --> 01:34:25,990 to gas millions of people horribly like 2277 01:34:31,890 --> 01:34:30,100 where their lungs turn to liquid so so 2278 01:34:34,170 --> 01:34:31,900 you have this interesting character in 2279 01:34:38,130 --> 01:34:34,180 Haber where you have a scientist who who 2280 01:34:41,430 --> 01:34:38,140 is a scientist objective follows the 2281 01:34:44,040 --> 01:34:41,440 scientific method yet is willing to use 2282 01:34:44,490 --> 01:34:44,050 science to kill people on a massive 2283 01:34:47,190 --> 01:34:44,500 scale 2284 01:34:49,680 --> 01:34:47,200 as well as feed people on a massive 2285 01:34:53,940 --> 01:34:49,690 scale right like the the irony and the 2286 01:34:57,570 --> 01:34:53,950 duality of Haber is is maddening it's in 2287 01:34:58,830 --> 01:34:57,580 fact so maddening that his wife 2288 01:35:00,450 --> 01:34:58,840 we don't know what happened we don't 2289 01:35:03,630 --> 01:35:00,460 know the conversation they had but as a 2290 01:35:05,640 --> 01:35:03,640 result of him creating these awful 2291 01:35:08,580 --> 01:35:05,650 weapons to be used against humans she 2292 01:35:12,270 --> 01:35:08,590 killed herself in in their garden in 2293 01:35:14,460 --> 01:35:12,280 their in their backyard she used his 2294 01:35:17,610 --> 01:35:14,470 service pistol and shot herself because 2295 01:35:19,980 --> 01:35:17,620 she couldn't be married to a man who has 2296 01:35:23,310 --> 01:35:19,990 fed the world and in the same breath you 2297 01:35:26,310 --> 01:35:23,320 know kills people with chemical weapons 2298 01:35:27,900 --> 01:35:26,320 and Haber himself was was sort of a bit 2299 01:35:30,150 --> 01:35:27,910 I don't know he was an interesting 2300 01:35:31,980 --> 01:35:30,160 character because they literally his 2301 01:35:33,390 --> 01:35:31,990 wife killed herself and a week later he 2302 01:35:35,820 --> 01:35:33,400 was on the battlefield testing his new 2303 01:35:37,650 --> 01:35:35,830 weapon and he and he watched it be used 2304 01:35:40,830 --> 01:35:37,660 for the first time in action against 2305 01:35:42,810 --> 01:35:40,840 soldiers so it would be odd to sort of 2306 01:35:44,940 --> 01:35:42,820 have your wife confront you about your 2307 01:35:47,970 --> 01:35:44,950 invention she kills herself in front of 2308 01:35:49,740 --> 01:35:47,980 you and then you then a week later are 2309 01:35:52,560 --> 01:35:49,750 on the battlefield watching chemical 2310 01:35:56,760 --> 01:35:52,570 bombs being dropped on on enemy soldiers 2311 01:36:00,000 --> 01:35:56,770 and watch I found in chlorine gas it 2312 01:36:01,370 --> 01:36:00,010 it's an interesting yeah I'm not sure 2313 01:36:03,930 --> 01:36:01,380 what the word is it's an interesting 2314 01:36:08,310 --> 01:36:03,940 version of reality you live in right so 2315 01:36:11,280 --> 01:36:08,320 the point of the whole idea is that 2316 01:36:13,560 --> 01:36:11,290 scientists themselves are not sort of 2317 01:36:16,620 --> 01:36:13,570 these he's these gods of objectivity 2318 01:36:18,870 --> 01:36:16,630 they are very much governed by the 2319 01:36:21,300 --> 01:36:18,880 politics and the culture they live in 2320 01:36:24,210 --> 01:36:21,310 they're governed by their society and 2321 01:36:27,890 --> 01:36:24,220 and if scientists were objective they 2322 01:36:29,490 --> 01:36:27,900 wouldn't Haber would not have have have 2323 01:36:32,040 --> 01:36:29,500 done what he did 2324 01:36:33,780 --> 01:36:32,050 I don't think and and I think what Haber 2325 01:36:35,580 --> 01:36:33,790 proves is that when when when they're 2326 01:36:38,040 --> 01:36:35,590 called on you know a scientist will will 2327 01:36:40,800 --> 01:36:38,050 work for his his nation or his border 2328 01:36:42,840 --> 01:36:40,810 and and in times of peace he'll you know 2329 01:36:46,290 --> 01:36:42,850 he'll feed the world but in times of war 2330 01:36:49,770 --> 01:36:46,300 he will help destroy that world so we 2331 01:36:52,050 --> 01:36:49,780 get this this this odd slap in the face 2332 01:36:53,940 --> 01:36:52,060 of scientific objectivity right there's 2333 01:36:55,560 --> 01:36:53,950 there's nothing objective about science 2334 01:36:57,390 --> 01:36:55,570 I don't think I think there's aspects 2335 01:37:00,000 --> 01:36:57,400 that we can sort of say are maybe more 2336 01:37:02,190 --> 01:37:00,010 objective but they're not totally 2337 01:37:03,660 --> 01:37:02,200 objective and I and I want to be 2338 01:37:06,530 --> 01:37:03,670 cautious when we talk about science 2339 01:37:09,919 --> 01:37:06,540 because scientists are not bad people 2340 01:37:12,919 --> 01:37:09,929 science itself is not a bad thing 2341 01:37:16,220 --> 01:37:12,929 but what is bad is when science believes 2342 01:37:19,750 --> 01:37:16,230 itself to be the only answer to anything 2343 01:37:24,260 --> 01:37:19,760 and and what row does that lead us down 2344 01:37:26,090 --> 01:37:24,270 so I I want to sort of assert that the 2345 01:37:29,000 --> 01:37:26,100 dogma of science is what's dangerous 2346 01:37:31,189 --> 01:37:29,010 scientism the religion of science is a 2347 01:37:33,890 --> 01:37:31,199 dangerous act because we lose a lot of 2348 01:37:35,870 --> 01:37:33,900 things and unfortunately what science 2349 01:37:38,169 --> 01:37:35,880 quickly forgets is that it requires the 2350 01:37:40,340 --> 01:37:38,179 rest of us especially sort of us 2351 01:37:43,459 --> 01:37:40,350 anthropologists and sociologists and 2352 01:37:45,830 --> 01:37:43,469 philosophers to to be the ethical litmus 2353 01:37:48,740 --> 01:37:45,840 test right what is science without 2354 01:37:51,169 --> 01:37:48,750 ethics and morals it's the atomic bomb 2355 01:37:53,300 --> 01:37:51,179 and it's chemical weapons and it's 2356 01:37:55,040 --> 01:37:53,310 biological warfare like that that is 2357 01:37:57,110 --> 01:37:55,050 science gone awry that is what science 2358 01:38:00,290 --> 01:37:57,120 does not have the ethical guide that it 2359 01:38:04,669 --> 01:38:00,300 needs and we kind of fall down this 2360 01:38:06,680 --> 01:38:04,679 slope of really humans doing bad things 2361 01:38:09,709 --> 01:38:06,690 to each other when we remain completely 2362 01:38:13,910 --> 01:38:09,719 objective and and at times I think Haber 2363 01:38:16,040 --> 01:38:13,920 himself you know viewed his weapon as an 2364 01:38:18,110 --> 01:38:16,050 interesting project right you know he 2365 01:38:20,630 --> 01:38:18,120 would watch thousands and thousands of 2366 01:38:23,300 --> 01:38:20,640 thousands rather thousands and thousands 2367 01:38:25,729 --> 01:38:23,310 of British and French soldiers literally 2368 01:38:26,720 --> 01:38:25,739 being drowned in chlorine gas because 2369 01:38:27,649 --> 01:38:26,730 they'd never experience his weapon 2370 01:38:29,479 --> 01:38:27,659 default like the first time the weapon 2371 01:38:31,669 --> 01:38:29,489 was tested no one knew that this was 2372 01:38:34,160 --> 01:38:31,679 even a possibility yeah and then 2373 01:38:36,380 --> 01:38:34,170 suddenly like it was like a regiment of 2374 01:38:37,939 --> 01:38:36,390 soldiers was hit by this bomb and and 2375 01:38:39,709 --> 01:38:37,949 the chlorine gas hit them and it was 2376 01:38:41,959 --> 01:38:39,719 like no one had a gas mask right because 2377 01:38:45,410 --> 01:38:41,969 it wasn't a weapon that was invented yet 2378 01:38:48,439 --> 01:38:45,420 yeah and you can imagine as Haber 2379 01:38:50,300 --> 01:38:48,449 watching this go down was he sitting 2380 01:38:52,700 --> 01:38:50,310 there feeling sorry for them 2381 01:38:53,870 --> 01:38:52,710 or was he sitting there being like oh 2382 01:38:55,220 --> 01:38:53,880 you know I have to adjust the 2383 01:38:56,870 --> 01:38:55,230 effectiveness of this because they're 2384 01:39:00,110 --> 01:38:56,880 not dying fast enough like you know I 2385 01:39:04,220 --> 01:39:00,120 mean like like like a usually watching 2386 01:39:06,470 --> 01:39:04,230 ants die right versus so yeah it's it's 2387 01:39:08,149 --> 01:39:06,480 frightening to me when when we view 2388 01:39:10,130 --> 01:39:08,159 science as the subjective thing because 2389 01:39:12,080 --> 01:39:10,140 the problem with with objectivity one is 2390 01:39:14,209 --> 01:39:12,090 it you need the subjective you need 2391 01:39:16,250 --> 01:39:14,219 people to see love and you need people 2392 01:39:19,370 --> 01:39:16,260 to care about one another for science to 2393 01:39:22,189 --> 01:39:19,380 be actually good we have enough examples 2394 01:39:23,810 --> 01:39:22,199 of science being evil right not because 2395 01:39:26,360 --> 01:39:23,820 science itself is evil but because 2396 01:39:28,010 --> 01:39:26,370 it behaves objectively and that's when 2397 01:39:30,800 --> 01:39:28,020 now stuff like the atomic bomb gets 2398 01:39:32,810 --> 01:39:30,810 built yeah right and I think you know 2399 01:39:35,060 --> 01:39:32,820 telling it back to the whole UFO 2400 01:39:37,250 --> 01:39:35,070 question you you do a good job of 2401 01:39:39,980 --> 01:39:37,260 showing that science is not the be-all 2402 01:39:42,500 --> 01:39:39,990 end-all answer to the UFO phenomenon it 2403 01:39:44,690 --> 01:39:42,510 is going to come from the sociologists 2404 01:39:47,000 --> 01:39:44,700 the psychologists the academics the 2405 01:39:49,400 --> 01:39:47,010 historians these scientists in both the 2406 01:39:52,220 --> 01:39:49,410 hard and soft sciences it's gonna come 2407 01:39:55,760 --> 01:39:52,230 from everyone and every everyone anyone 2408 01:39:57,710 --> 01:39:55,770 and no one right yeah and the beautiful 2409 01:40:00,500 --> 01:39:57,720 and like the UFO phenomena I think is a 2410 01:40:02,300 --> 01:40:00,510 big reflection of our lives right so I 2411 01:40:04,490 --> 01:40:02,310 don't think science is the answer to 2412 01:40:05,960 --> 01:40:04,500 everything period you know like I think 2413 01:40:11,210 --> 01:40:05,970 there are a lot of ways to the truth 2414 01:40:13,730 --> 01:40:11,220 science is is is is a path to get to the 2415 01:40:15,980 --> 01:40:13,740 truth and it's a great path but you need 2416 01:40:19,640 --> 01:40:15,990 all those other paths to kind of guide 2417 01:40:22,070 --> 01:40:19,650 science as well you know because 2418 01:40:24,020 --> 01:40:22,080 otherwise science can go often in any 2419 01:40:26,840 --> 01:40:24,030 direction and and it can be good and it 2420 01:40:28,400 --> 01:40:26,850 can be bad exactly well then I can't 2421 01:40:30,620 --> 01:40:28,410 think of a better way to wrap up sort of 2422 01:40:32,840 --> 01:40:30,630 the the idea of the book and we really 2423 01:40:35,570 --> 01:40:32,850 did only scratch the surface I mean I 2424 01:40:37,430 --> 01:40:35,580 was furiously going through this just to 2425 01:40:39,650 --> 01:40:37,440 UM so that we could make this interview 2426 01:40:41,300 --> 01:40:39,660 happen as soon as I did because I wanted 2427 01:40:43,490 --> 01:40:41,310 to be the first to talk about your new 2428 01:40:44,540 --> 01:40:43,500 books you are too you officially win the 2429 01:40:46,700 --> 01:40:44,550 race boom 2430 01:40:49,220 --> 01:40:46,710 see that's that's why I did it I can't 2431 01:40:52,310 --> 01:40:49,230 wait to go back and actually dive deeper 2432 01:40:54,350 --> 01:40:52,320 and and really dig into the meat of it 2433 01:40:57,290 --> 01:40:54,360 so we'll have to have you back on for 2434 01:40:59,570 --> 01:40:57,300 that but I did want to sort of bookend 2435 01:41:00,380 --> 01:40:59,580 this with another endeavor that you're 2436 01:41:02,780 --> 01:41:00,390 doing 2437 01:41:05,420 --> 01:41:02,790 besides tearing obscura and that's cafe 2438 01:41:07,550 --> 01:41:05,430 obscura your YouTube channel series 2439 01:41:08,750 --> 01:41:07,560 which is really taking off you're 2440 01:41:11,240 --> 01:41:08,760 getting some really interesting people 2441 01:41:13,160 --> 01:41:11,250 on there that you know we're not used to 2442 01:41:16,490 --> 01:41:13,170 hearing from in the UFO community which 2443 01:41:17,750 --> 01:41:16,500 i think is very very important so would 2444 01:41:21,620 --> 01:41:17,760 you mind sort of telling us a little 2445 01:41:24,920 --> 01:41:21,630 about cafe obscura I think what what 2446 01:41:29,030 --> 01:41:24,930 cafe obscura is is it's an extension of 2447 01:41:32,930 --> 01:41:29,040 the blog and and I think sometimes the 2448 01:41:37,050 --> 01:41:32,940 blog gets maybe a little too too heady 2449 01:41:38,160 --> 01:41:37,060 and and you you kind of lose people 2450 01:41:41,190 --> 01:41:38,170 and sometimes it's easier just to have a 2451 01:41:43,770 --> 01:41:41,200 conversation sort of over audio and 2452 01:41:46,290 --> 01:41:43,780 video and and not kind of write out your 2453 01:41:47,910 --> 01:41:46,300 thesis and a giant essay because 2454 01:41:49,650 --> 01:41:47,920 oftentimes I'll start at Arabs here a 2455 01:41:50,910 --> 01:41:49,660 post like my blog posts and I'm like 2456 01:41:52,620 --> 01:41:50,920 okay I'm gonna do a short one and then 2457 01:41:54,750 --> 01:41:52,630 it ends up being like 2,500 words and 2458 01:41:56,760 --> 01:41:54,760 and suddenly people just want to sit and 2459 01:41:58,340 --> 01:41:56,770 read through that some people are much 2460 01:42:01,710 --> 01:41:58,350 more willing to sit through an hour-long 2461 01:42:03,420 --> 01:42:01,720 YouTube show if they're interested and 2462 01:42:05,220 --> 01:42:03,430 and so that's that's sort of how it 2463 01:42:07,730 --> 01:42:05,230 started was this idea just to make my 2464 01:42:12,090 --> 01:42:07,740 content a little more approachable to 2465 01:42:15,800 --> 01:42:12,100 sort of a more mainstream public but 2466 01:42:18,750 --> 01:42:15,810 then I also wanted to have a show that 2467 01:42:21,210 --> 01:42:18,760 no one really else in the UFO community 2468 01:42:23,700 --> 01:42:21,220 was doing I think that in the UFO 2469 01:42:29,010 --> 01:42:23,710 community there's a lot of hesitation to 2470 01:42:31,590 --> 01:42:29,020 talk politics and to talk issues that 2471 01:42:34,500 --> 01:42:31,600 some people find potentially I don't 2472 01:42:36,180 --> 01:42:34,510 know like impolite you know people don't 2473 01:42:37,140 --> 01:42:36,190 like talking about politics in the UFO 2474 01:42:39,480 --> 01:42:37,150 community people don't like talking 2475 01:42:41,880 --> 01:42:39,490 about gender in the UFO community people 2476 01:42:44,160 --> 01:42:41,890 don't like talking about race and race 2477 01:42:47,820 --> 01:42:44,170 politics in the UFO community which is 2478 01:42:49,200 --> 01:42:47,830 really I think important these are these 2479 01:42:51,450 --> 01:42:49,210 are things that I think need to be 2480 01:42:53,070 --> 01:42:51,460 talked about and just because no one has 2481 01:42:55,350 --> 01:42:53,080 talked about them in the past doesn't 2482 01:42:58,980 --> 01:42:55,360 make them any less relevant and so cafe 2483 01:43:01,260 --> 01:42:58,990 obscura is a project right now that that 2484 01:43:06,690 --> 01:43:01,270 is aimed one I think at pissing people 2485 01:43:09,090 --> 01:43:06,700 off but - at getting to the root of how 2486 01:43:10,800 --> 01:43:09,100 the UFO community functions and and the 2487 01:43:12,150 --> 01:43:10,810 broader paranormal community Africa it's 2488 01:43:16,650 --> 01:43:12,160 not just about UFOs this sort of in 2489 01:43:19,650 --> 01:43:16,660 general paranormal and to engage with 2490 01:43:23,790 --> 01:43:19,660 with interesting people in the study who 2491 01:43:25,740 --> 01:43:23,800 don't usually get a lot of airtime and 2492 01:43:27,990 --> 01:43:25,750 who don't often get a chance to talk 2493 01:43:30,930 --> 01:43:28,000 about their stories and their opinions 2494 01:43:32,940 --> 01:43:30,940 and their politics because at the end of 2495 01:43:35,610 --> 01:43:32,950 the day I think the UFO community often 2496 01:43:37,740 --> 01:43:35,620 becomes an echo chamber absolutely you 2497 01:43:39,510 --> 01:43:37,750 know oftentimes what happens is the same 2498 01:43:41,190 --> 01:43:39,520 people get interviewed over and over and 2499 01:43:44,220 --> 01:43:41,200 over again and those are the messages 2500 01:43:45,660 --> 01:43:44,230 that become the the whole community 2501 01:43:48,720 --> 01:43:45,670 really like and when you think about you 2502 01:43:50,880 --> 01:43:48,730 know how the mainstream and the popular 2503 01:43:52,980 --> 01:43:50,890 media interprets the UFO community it 2504 01:43:55,470 --> 01:43:52,990 often through the voices of a very small 2505 01:43:57,360 --> 01:43:55,480 handful of people the people who 2506 01:43:59,100 --> 01:43:57,370 constantly get interviewed the people 2507 01:44:00,390 --> 01:43:59,110 who constantly appear on television the 2508 01:44:04,710 --> 01:44:00,400 people constantly appear in magazines 2509 01:44:06,600 --> 01:44:04,720 and in newspapers and are kind of like 2510 01:44:07,920 --> 01:44:06,610 really our representatives to the 2511 01:44:10,950 --> 01:44:07,930 broader community and the broader 2512 01:44:12,720 --> 01:44:10,960 culture pop culture and the problem is 2513 01:44:14,580 --> 01:44:12,730 they have their message and that's fine 2514 01:44:16,980 --> 01:44:14,590 you know good for them that's what it 2515 01:44:20,280 --> 01:44:16,990 should be but the UFO community is much 2516 01:44:22,590 --> 01:44:20,290 richer than that we are with people who 2517 01:44:25,020 --> 01:44:22,600 are concerned about the same thing to 2518 01:44:26,910 --> 01:44:25,030 any communities concerned about what are 2519 01:44:28,230 --> 01:44:26,920 the the issues the political issues in 2520 01:44:30,180 --> 01:44:28,240 our community and that we face what are 2521 01:44:32,520 --> 01:44:30,190 the gender issues that we face and and 2522 01:44:35,280 --> 01:44:32,530 and how do we how do we view ourselves 2523 01:44:39,420 --> 01:44:35,290 and how do other people view us you know 2524 01:44:42,480 --> 01:44:39,430 can we be critical of ourselves and and 2525 01:44:43,770 --> 01:44:42,490 not fall victim to to just not wanting 2526 01:44:45,480 --> 01:44:43,780 to talk about it and I think that that's 2527 01:44:47,640 --> 01:44:45,490 kind of what occasionally happens I 2528 01:44:50,790 --> 01:44:47,650 think we we don't want to upset our 2529 01:44:53,760 --> 01:44:50,800 viewership or our listenership so we 2530 01:44:55,590 --> 01:44:53,770 don't touch things because people will 2531 01:44:57,150 --> 01:44:55,600 view them as offensive or just 2532 01:44:58,320 --> 01:44:57,160 uncomfortable and they won't watch or 2533 01:45:01,560 --> 01:44:58,330 listen and I think that's what cafe 2534 01:45:05,550 --> 01:45:01,570 obscura tries to fill in in deals with 2535 01:45:07,880 --> 01:45:05,560 those issues of race and gender which is 2536 01:45:11,190 --> 01:45:07,890 coming up next week you know two weeks 2537 01:45:12,870 --> 01:45:11,200 and it deals with issues of economics 2538 01:45:16,320 --> 01:45:12,880 and to deal with issues of class and end 2539 01:45:19,050 --> 01:45:16,330 and poverty and all that within our 2540 01:45:22,110 --> 01:45:19,060 community so it's it's an interesting 2541 01:45:23,640 --> 01:45:22,120 little project I know some people have 2542 01:45:26,310 --> 01:45:23,650 told me already they don't like it they 2543 01:45:29,100 --> 01:45:26,320 think politics have has no business in 2544 01:45:30,720 --> 01:45:29,110 the UFO discourse I don't necessarily 2545 01:45:32,850 --> 01:45:30,730 agree with them I think the OCO 2546 01:45:36,990 --> 01:45:32,860 I think the UFO phenomena itself and UFO 2547 01:45:39,690 --> 01:45:37,000 discourse itself is political so so I 2548 01:45:40,830 --> 01:45:39,700 think that's a nonsense claim I think 2549 01:45:43,170 --> 01:45:40,840 there's there's there's gonna be a lot 2550 01:45:45,090 --> 01:45:43,180 of pushback but again I'm sort of 2551 01:45:47,520 --> 01:45:45,100 i-i-i-i've the luxury of being a 2552 01:45:49,110 --> 01:45:47,530 relatively small player in the UFO field 2553 01:45:52,950 --> 01:45:49,120 so I can say whatever the hell I want 2554 01:45:56,160 --> 01:45:52,960 nobody cares so that's kind of enjoyable 2555 01:45:57,810 --> 01:45:56,170 and freeing so yeah it's been 2556 01:46:00,540 --> 01:45:57,820 interesting it's it I've only had maybe 2557 01:46:02,490 --> 01:46:00,550 what five episodes now and the next big 2558 01:46:03,630 --> 01:46:02,500 one I'm having Alison Jordan on who's in 2559 01:46:04,560 --> 01:46:03,640 my book and we're gonna talk about 2560 01:46:06,600 --> 01:46:04,570 gender politics 2561 01:46:08,790 --> 01:46:06,610 in in the UFO and paranormal communities 2562 01:46:11,550 --> 01:46:08,800 so that should be an interesting one to 2563 01:46:13,380 --> 01:46:11,560 get you know a few feathers ruffled but 2564 01:46:15,990 --> 01:46:13,390 it's sort of no-nonsense no 2565 01:46:17,880 --> 01:46:16,000 just you know having a conversation like 2566 01:46:19,500 --> 01:46:17,890 you would over a cup of coffee and 2567 01:46:21,120 --> 01:46:19,510 that's kind of the theme right the the 2568 01:46:22,440 --> 01:46:21,130 idea of just a couple people meeting in 2569 01:46:26,070 --> 01:46:22,450 a coffee shop 2570 01:46:29,640 --> 01:46:26,080 hence the cafe and I'm just shooting the 2571 01:46:31,860 --> 01:46:29,650 about UFOs I've had the paranormal 2572 01:46:34,410 --> 01:46:31,870 yeah I absolutely love it and I'm seeing 2573 01:46:38,040 --> 01:46:34,420 the YouTube channel growing every week 2574 01:46:40,380 --> 01:46:38,050 and the comments becoming more and more 2575 01:46:43,110 --> 01:46:40,390 so I mean that's that's all you can ask 2576 01:46:45,870 --> 01:46:43,120 for as people are talking it's not it's 2577 01:46:47,550 --> 01:46:45,880 not that echo-chamber any longer so 2578 01:46:50,370 --> 01:46:47,560 you're starting the conversations 2579 01:46:53,640 --> 01:46:50,380 whether it's in the blog in the book or 2580 01:46:56,070 --> 01:46:53,650 on YouTube which is great so I mean I 2581 01:46:57,750 --> 01:46:56,080 have to thank you for letting allowing 2582 01:46:59,790 --> 01:46:57,760 me to be the first to sort of get you on 2583 01:47:03,420 --> 01:46:59,800 here to talk about the book when can we 2584 01:47:06,300 --> 01:47:03,430 expect that and where will we be able to 2585 01:47:08,730 --> 01:47:06,310 find it sure yeah so right now the book 2586 01:47:10,890 --> 01:47:08,740 is just sort of being type settings 2587 01:47:13,830 --> 01:47:10,900 although last it's in the last stages so 2588 01:47:16,140 --> 01:47:13,840 I'm hoping it will hit Amazon and all 2589 01:47:17,610 --> 01:47:16,150 the other sort of major booksellers like 2590 01:47:19,680 --> 01:47:17,620 the online one like Barnes & Noble and 2591 01:47:22,710 --> 01:47:19,690 all that stuff so anywhere you can have 2592 01:47:25,620 --> 01:47:22,720 a bio book online it will should be out 2593 01:47:27,540 --> 01:47:25,630 within I would say a week or two that's 2594 01:47:30,090 --> 01:47:27,550 kind of where we're at so it'll either 2595 01:47:32,330 --> 01:47:30,100 be next week or the week after is when 2596 01:47:35,670 --> 01:47:32,340 that book will be available for purchase 2597 01:47:37,830 --> 01:47:35,680 and the my best advice would be to 2598 01:47:40,800 --> 01:47:37,840 follow me on social media because I will 2599 01:47:43,170 --> 01:47:40,810 obviously sort of be promoting it and 2600 01:47:46,020 --> 01:47:43,180 then all the links will be there so you 2601 01:47:48,420 --> 01:47:46,030 can follow me on the social medias @mj 2602 01:47:50,340 --> 01:47:48,430 benaiah that's my Instagram Twitter and 2603 01:47:52,980 --> 01:47:50,350 then on Facebook you'll find me just by 2604 01:47:55,200 --> 01:47:52,990 punching an MJ bin eius or you can visit 2605 01:47:56,580 --> 01:47:55,210 my website I've got multiple but really 2606 01:47:59,310 --> 01:47:56,590 where the book is kind of kind of rest 2607 01:48:03,180 --> 01:47:59,320 as links to purchase is just MJ bond is 2608 01:48:05,250 --> 01:48:03,190 calm and just kind of go there every 2609 01:48:07,260 --> 01:48:05,260 once in a while over the next two weeks 2610 01:48:08,760 --> 01:48:07,270 and it should pop up once I kind of have 2611 01:48:10,020 --> 01:48:08,770 more formal information from my 2612 01:48:14,070 --> 01:48:10,030 publisher but we're looking at the next 2613 01:48:15,360 --> 01:48:14,080 week or two guaranteed so yeah we're 2614 01:48:17,280 --> 01:48:15,370 we're about a week and a half two weeks 2615 01:48:17,800 --> 01:48:17,290 away which I'm really excited to kind of 2616 01:48:19,690 --> 01:48:17,810 finally 2617 01:48:21,370 --> 01:48:19,700 get out there but social media is the 2618 01:48:22,990 --> 01:48:21,380 best place to to kind of stay on top of 2619 01:48:25,810 --> 01:48:23,000 that as well as my youtube channel 2620 01:48:28,930 --> 01:48:25,820 it's just youtube.com forward slash back 2621 01:48:30,460 --> 01:48:28,940 side forward slash /mj benaiah okay just 2622 01:48:31,930 --> 01:48:30,470 youtube.com forward slash I'm Jay Baer 2623 01:48:34,300 --> 01:48:31,940 nice you can find my youtube channel 2624 01:48:36,460 --> 01:48:34,310 there and you can subscribe whatever and 2625 01:48:38,940 --> 01:48:36,470 all obviously kind of post stuff about 2626 01:48:41,140 --> 01:48:38,950 my book there as well so there's a lot 2627 01:48:43,780 --> 01:48:41,150 gonna be coming out within the next two 2628 01:48:45,670 --> 01:48:43,790 weeks concerning the book so you can 2629 01:48:49,180 --> 01:48:45,680 find me there and my website my blog 2630 01:48:51,190 --> 01:48:49,190 obviously WWE tera obscura net is always 2631 01:48:52,720 --> 01:48:51,200 kind of producing blog posts but it'd 2632 01:48:54,280 --> 01:48:52,730 been a little slow I've been super busy 2633 01:48:56,770 --> 01:48:54,290 with the book and this YouTube thing 2634 01:48:58,210 --> 01:48:56,780 it's kind of invaded my life so the blog 2635 01:49:01,660 --> 01:48:58,220 post have been coming a little slow 2636 01:49:05,260 --> 01:49:01,670 I know the feelings just overwhelming 2637 01:49:07,810 --> 01:49:05,270 yeah producing content in any genre or 2638 01:49:10,120 --> 01:49:07,820 format is extremely time consuming I 2639 01:49:13,150 --> 01:49:10,130 wish people could see how much time I 2640 01:49:15,100 --> 01:49:13,160 actually spent editing a you know an 2641 01:49:17,590 --> 01:49:15,110 hour long episode it could take days 2642 01:49:20,110 --> 01:49:17,600 sometimes depends on the guest really 2643 01:49:22,660 --> 01:49:20,120 depends on the guest but you know I'm so 2644 01:49:25,720 --> 01:49:22,670 excited again the book is the UFO people 2645 01:49:27,910 --> 01:49:25,730 a curious culture I can't wait for that 2646 01:49:29,170 --> 01:49:27,920 and I can't wait to get you back on for 2647 01:49:32,380 --> 01:49:29,180 our next installment of summer in the 2648 01:49:35,380 --> 01:49:32,390 whiskies so thank you again MJ it Ryan 2649 01:49:37,450 --> 01:49:35,390 it's always an honor I will listen you 2650 01:49:39,520 --> 01:49:37,460 shoot me a text I'll be on your show 2651 01:49:42,880 --> 01:49:39,530 anytime doesn't matter 2652 01:49:44,650 --> 01:49:42,890 I'm there Cheers thank you that is it 2653 01:49:46,810 --> 01:49:44,660 for this week's episode again thank you 2654 01:49:48,790 --> 01:49:46,820 so much - MJ pan Dyess for coming on 2655 01:49:50,950 --> 01:49:48,800 again we'll be sure to have another 2656 01:49:53,380 --> 01:49:50,960 somewhere in the whiskey coming up very 2657 01:49:55,480 --> 01:49:53,390 soon in the meantime you can check out 2658 01:49:58,110 --> 01:49:55,490 all of our work at somewhere in the 2659 01:50:00,880 --> 01:49:58,120 skies calm including past episodes 2660 01:50:02,260 --> 01:50:00,890 contact information articles and 2661 01:50:04,870 --> 01:50:02,270 everything in between 2662 01:50:07,210 --> 01:50:04,880 we're also on twitter at somewhere skies 2663 01:50:10,270 --> 01:50:07,220 and instagram at somewhere skies pod 2664 01:50:12,310 --> 01:50:10,280 please take a few moments to rate review 2665 01:50:14,959 --> 01:50:12,320 and subscribe to some of the skies on 2666 01:50:17,209 --> 01:50:14,969 itunes or wherever you gave you about 2667 01:50:20,479 --> 01:50:17,219 guests the official someone the sky 2668 01:50:23,569 --> 01:50:20,489 store is open @t public calm 2669 01:50:25,669 --> 01:50:23,579 that's te public calm and just search 2670 01:50:27,979 --> 01:50:25,679 for the summer in the sky store we have 2671 01:50:30,169 --> 01:50:27,989 plenty of cool merchandise waiting for 2672 01:50:33,739 --> 01:50:30,179 you right now be sure to join me next 2673 01:50:36,469 --> 01:50:33,749 week for a 100th episode of some learn 2674 01:50:38,750 --> 01:50:36,479 the skies I can't wait to share that 2675 01:50:41,089 --> 01:50:38,760 would be very soon I'll see you here 2676 01:50:42,950 --> 01:50:41,099 next week and remember keep your feet on 2677 01:50:49,810 --> 01:50:42,960 the ground but never stop searching 2678 01:51:24,600 --> 01:51:22,940 [Music] 2679 01:51:27,040 --> 01:51:24,610 [Applause] 2680 01:51:28,810 --> 01:51:27,050 somewhere in the skies is produced by 2681 01:51:31,000 --> 01:51:28,820 Third Kind productions in association 2682 01:51:32,530 --> 01:51:31,010 with the entertainment one podcast